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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| It seems that everyone and everything is Hitler and/or Nazi-like. Just ask Rapier, who also indicts the United States govt and the rest of Western Civ for perpetrating a Holocaust in the Americas. |
It might have been you who attacked Michael Moore on another thread for appealing to peoples' emotions instead of looking objectively at the situation. Now, there have been debates concerning objectivity but I think we can make a distinction between purely emotional appeals and arguments that seek to use logic and evidence to direct their point.
I went to a small liberal arts college right next to the Naval Academy in Annapolis. We have a different curriculum and all classes are discussion based. We used to have a saying that the easiest way to kill a class was to compare something someone was saying to Hitler, or even allege that someone was talking like Hitler. Frankly, this conversational bogeyman was seen as the last resort of someone without the maturity to discuss things reasonably and rationally. |
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papa_geno
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Location: Gangneung
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papa_geno
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Location: Gangneung
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Hitler asked Churchill if he wanted to wage a sham war over Poland, for example. He just couldn't grasp that another govt would actually stand on a principle. |
That's certainly one way to interpret this action. Another, and one that leads to some very interesting thoughts, is presented in the book The Germanic Isle : Nazi Perceptions of Britain, by Gerwin Strobl:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521782651/qid=1125235840/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-2037175-1872714?v=glance&s=books
If history's your thing, this one's an interesting book to read.
Edit: Re: USS Maine--taken from a website maintained by the US Navy ( http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq71-1.htm ):
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In 1976, Admiral Hyman G. Rickover published his book, How the Battleship Maine Was Destroyed. The admiral became interested in the disaster and wondered if the application of modern scientific knowledge could determine the cause. He called on two experts on explosions and their effects on ship hulls. Using documentation gathered from the two official inquiries, as well as information on the construction and ammunition of Maine, the experts concluded that the damage caused to the ship was inconsistent with the external explosion of a mine. The most likely cause, they speculated, was spontaneous combustion of coal in the bunker next to the magazine.
Some historians have disputed the findings in Rickover's book, maintaining that failure to detect spontaneous combustion in the coal bunker was highly unlikely. Yet evidence of a mine remains thin and such theories are based primarily on conjecture. Despite the best efforts of experts and historians in investigating this complex and technical subject, a definitive explanation for the destruction of Maine remains elusive. |
It's contentious, but there isn't a complete lack of evidence that the US Govt just might have used the sinking of the Maine as propaganda...crazier things have been done by governments, and it's a little dodgy to dismiss the possibility out of hand...just as dodgy as swallowing conspiracy theories whole. When the US Navy is willing to concede that the evidence for the official explanation is "thin," you know the tin-foil hat brigade isn't entirely without a leg to stand on. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| Papa_Geno wrote: |
| It's contentious, but there isn't a complete lack of evidence that the US Govt just might have used the sinking of the Maine as propaganda...crazier things have been done by governments, and it's a little dodgy to dismiss the possibility out of hand... |
Without googling anything, and going purely on hazy memories, I thought that William Randolph Hearst and the other so-called 'yellow journalists' pushed the war. Although, surely the McKinley administration must have been happy with this. |
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papa_geno
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Location: Gangneung
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 5:59 am Post subject: |
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@Kuros:
That's the way I understand it as well...but as you say, the US government didn't seem to be in any big hurry to quiet them down.
One would assume, in any covert operation, that the government would have some interest in maintaining plausible deniability. Doesn't make the conspiracy theory right, but it doesn't make the official explanation right, either. Most of us aren't terribly in the know about how these things really operate, now or then, and it's always a bit disheartening to see a discussion on such things being dominated by people (on both sides) more interested in pretending they know more than they do than those interested in a civil--and enlightening--exchange of ideas. That's as true today as it is about the Maine.
There are dodgy things about 9/11, and as the relatively recent revelations swirling around Mr. Rove too amply demonstrate, there's even more that's dodgy about the current administration's actions surrounding the present war? police action? in Iraq. Those things should be looked into with an open mind.
Mind you, I'm not quite convinced Bush footed the bill for 19 airline tickets on September 11th, though I don't think him entirely above letting it happen. Don't know that he did, just don't think enough of him to say with any certainty that he didn't. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| I'm sorry. What does a statement from a Nazi leader in the mid-twentieth century have to do with 9/11? |
What he said was bang on the mark. Maybe you should read what he said again. Here, seeing how you had a problem making the connexion, i'll post it in a little more "reader friendly" form 
Hermann Goering
Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece?
Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood.
But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.
It works the same in any country  |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| ... but not all governments who fabricate pretexts are analogous to Nazi Germany. |
Or Stalin's Russia or Pol Pot's Cambodia or Mao's China. Fine, however that wasn't my main point.
The point was simply to help illustrate, as you yourself have agreed, nefarious elements within government use false flag ops or fabricated pretexts as justification for promoting their larger murderous miltary agenda.
| Gopher wrote: |
Do you have any direct evidence that anyone in the Bush Administration has said that they agree with Goerring? Do you have them saying anything that might indicate this?
Anything at all...? |
Devil's advocate again ??? Ok. Whatever makes you tic. Are you insinuating these characters have no idea how to drum up support for their campaigns ??? Hmmmmmm ...
While Operation Northwoods http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods - stands out a pretty obvious example, ( often claimed to be an unfounded conspiracy theory, the document was declassified in recent years by the Freedom of Information Act, thereby proving to be a verified conspiracy ) i'm equally confident you're familiar with this:
"The process of [military] transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event -- like a new Pearl Harbor."
- Rebuilding America��s Defenses, September 2000, Project for a New American Century
http://www.newamericancentury.org
Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Jeb Bush, Richard Perle, et al.
http://www.oilempire.us/pnac.html |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| igotthisguitar wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| ... but not all governments who fabricate pretexts are analogous to Nazi Germany. |
Or Stalin's Russia or Pol Pot's Cambodia or Mao's China. Fine, however that wasn't my main point. |
Yes it was. Your main point consisted of a picture of Goering and his statement on how wartime propaganda works and you presented it as if it explained all we needed to know about the Iraqi invasion. |
No it wasn't. That's highly presumptuous of you ... bucko.
| Gopher wrote: |
| It's lazy. It's easy. Everybody always compares everything they disagree with or don't like with the Nazis. |
You're right in that i could of just as easily, although yes it woulda taken a few seconds of tinkering around, posted the quote SANS "his" name SANS "the picture". By focusing on his name, political affiliation, picture etc, you largely missed my point.
What he says stands on its own, regardless of whether the guy's Gestapo or Vulcan or Iraqi or a Neo-con or a university professor or what have you.
Anyways, now that you mention it, as far as comparing the current AmeriKan regime to the 3rd Reich, are you sure you want to get into that one ??? Operation Paperclip ??? http://www.google.com/search?q=operation+paperclip&hl=en&lr=
Operation Odessa ??? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ODESSA
Especially where the history of the Bush Crime Syndicate and people like Henry Kissinger are concerned. Do we really wanna go there right now ???
| Gopher wrote: |
| Why do you people have to bring the Nazis and the Holocaust into every discussion? |
Who is YOU people ??? 
Every discussion ??? You're question is overblown. C'mon, man. Drop the hyperbole.
You're the one who felt the Nazi connexion needed to be commented on. Not me. It was WHAT he said that mostly rang true, NOT "who" was saying it. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 12:52 am Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:59 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 12:57 am Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:21 am Post subject: |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:35 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| You and Rapier, and if memory serves, others here usually resort to calling everything "Nazi." |
Like Joo ... ???
| Gopher wrote: |
| The United States mobilized for total war against the Nazis. It's not likely that Naziism will ever succeed there...indeed, your casual use of "Nazi" to refer to all evil things partly demonstrates this point. |
Having said this you presumably have little awareness of the aforementioned Operations "Paperclip" & "Odessa". Sure MOST people were convinced of the black & white "good" vs. "evil" struggle against these dark powers during WW2.
However, there were also elements primarily within the ranks of banking & industry who saw the chance to capitalize on the crisis even if that meant colluding with ( i.e working together, investing in & helping to support ) 3rd Reich Germany.
After all, the world was in a major global depression wasn't it ???
Back in the early 30's AmeriKa there was even a "fascist" coup conspiracy that had been hatched to get rid of FDR for crying out loud. An American WWI Hero, and a man who remains one of the Marines most highly decorated soldiers, Maj. General Smedley Butler was instrumental in breaking up the conspirators' plans. Shortly after this time he published "WAR IS A RACKET".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_is_a_Racket
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler
If you're not up to speed on this one, i recommend you look into it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot
etc ... etc ...
| Gopher wrote: |
| Except for pockets of neoNazis scattered in many countries (and they will not likely ever amount to anything), the Nazis are done, man. Game over. History is unique and only happens once. |
My impression is they've simply morphed over time. Thesis / antithesis / synthesis.
Germany's beloved leader called for a NEW WORLD ORDER. What exactly was he getting at ???
Might this have had any similarities with what George Bush was getting at when he repeated this call on September 11th, 1990 ???
"The Persian Gulf crisis is a rare opportunity to forge new bonds with old enemies (the Soviet Union) ... Out of these troubled times a New World Order can emerge under a United Nations that performs as envisioned by its founders."
Neocon radickals & the Bush admin. is doing a pretty good job thanks to legislation such as the "Patiot" Act. Highly similar to Hitler's "Enabling" Act.
http://www.customscorruption.com/hitler.htm
http://cghs.dade.k12.fl.us/holocaust/enabling.htm |
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