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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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 Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| bignate wrote: |
| It isn't a black problem, it is a societal problem..... |
I always find that word a broad brush. It encompasses so many different variables. It seems to me that black people are more sensitive to "societal" problems" than their white/Asian counterparts in similar socio-economic groups. The addage "the world owes me a living" springs to mind. Are poor black people more prone to believing this? |
Some are I expect. Some aren't. What is a problem is that a culture has developed that seems to prevent African Americans from getting ahead and since America has an 'all men are created equal' kind of ethos, one would assume that all men, black, white, Asian whatever would apply themselves to ending this cycle of failure, rather than just blaming the African American community for it. A blame not dissimilar to the blame that some black people tend use for what put them in their predicament in the first place. A little pragamtism is needed, I reckon. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| One reason for the way Japan is is because it has a real middle class that encompasses most of the population. The last time I checked (around 2000) the presidents of Japanese companies made an average of eight times that of an average worker whereas in the States/west it's a few hundred times. There's a real feeling of being in the same boat as everybody else in Japan. |
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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| bignate wrote: |
| It isn't a black problem, it is a societal problem..... |
I always find that word a broad brush. It encompasses so many different variables. It seems to me that black people are more sensitive to "societal" problems" than their white/Asian counterparts in similar socio-economic groups. The addage "the world owes me a living" springs to mind. Are poor black people more prone to believing this? |
You are right about this, it is a broad and sweeping statement, I know that, but in my opinion it is the only hopeful thing that can be said. It is such a very complex and highly contentious issue.
But what are we to say, that all blacks are violent, agressive, barbaric people. I don't believe that, there are so many instances where this is not the case. It takes a wide number and a complex variety of societal conditions to induce the reactions that we are seeing in NO. Was there crime such as this prior to the disaster, rapes, murders, people shooting at police all over the US and the World, sure there was, were all those people black, no.
However, with all the world watching, with a predominantly black populous remaining in NO in a drastic and somewhat enfuriating situation, that is what we see. We see black hoodlums, acting in a manner in which they have always been conditioned to, at the extremes of acceptability.
I don't want to apologize for anyone who rapes, kills, or loots, that is not the purpose of my posts, it is to discuss the issues a little more deeply than a CNN news segment. No one knows where it was these people came from, what they have gone through, what things they have had to endure through this whole thing or their life. I live a very pampered life, I have always had what I needed and more, I have a great education, I have seen many parts of the world, and I have a stable and rewarding career... and still I find life difficult and enfuriating - I cannot, can not, imagine what those people are going through, what they have to endure daily, especially now.
If they are black, fine, but the only way to make the situation better is to make it better for all, not just us - who sit here behind our keyboards living and doing things we love....
As to wether black people are more prone to believe the world owes them a living, this, I don't know.... But the world, the US government, and everyone interested in Human Rights owes everyone the ability to make a living to feel secure and equal in rights and person inhere of being human..
Those people who rape and murder and shoot at rescue workers, are criminals, and should be treated as such... But by the same token, those who are not, who are helping each other, who are living through this disaster with little or no initial help, who are living through this when they are the least able to do so, they should not be painted with the same "broad brush" which you objected to......
In the end, I still find it something that is societal in nature, it is complex and broad, and requires much more thought than can be placed into a post such as this. It involves systemic racism, historical precident, political rhetoric, impoverishment, psychololgy, social instability, media contextualisation, demographic, social program and wage inequalities, etc. It can not all be generalized to say black bad/black good. |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| bignate wrote: |
| But what are we to say, that all blacks are violent, agressive, barbaric people. I don't believe that, there are so many instances where this is not the case. |
I agree absolutely with regard to the latter point, but I am always left puzzled by the fact that a disproportionate amount of black people languish in British prisons. I appreciate that this is a slight deviation from N/O but I mention it because is this not applicable to the US prison population too? Further, in the UK a disproportionate amount of black people fall into the lowest socio-economic groups too. Again, isn't this analogous to the situation in the US? I sincerely ask you, is there a more influential force keeping black people in this situation than black people themselves?
| Quote: |
| As to wether black people are more prone to believe the world owes them a living, this, I don't know.... But the world, the US government, and everyone interested in Human Rights owes everyone the ability to make a living to feel secure and equal in rights and person inhere of being human.. |
Does the individual not bear any responsibility for ensuring that their perception of inequality is measured, and reasonable? Shouldn't parents who were saddled with negative influences during their own childhood bear responsibility for their children, and ensure that they have every chance of breaking the shackles of poverty and disenfranchisement? Is it acceptable that we apportion blame to the state for the failings of parents who shirked their obligations and ensured that their own children would continue to be stuck in the quigmire from which they themselves couldn't escape?
| Quote: |
| Those people who rape and murder and shoot at rescue workers, are criminals, and should be treated as such... But by the same token, those who are not, who are helping each other, who are living through this disaster with little or no initial help, who are living through this when they are the least able to do so, they should not be painted with the same "broad brush" which you objected to...... |
I agree. There are many black people who achieve, help others, and contribute greatly to the US. Did these black people elevate themselves by blaming society for any perceived wrongs though? I seriously doubt it.
| Quote: |
| In the end, I still find it something that is societal in nature, it is complex and broad, and requires much more thought than can be placed into a post such as this. It involves systemic racism, historical precident, political rhetoric, impoverishment, psychololgy, social instability, media contextualisation, demographic, social program and wage inequalities, etc. |
I hope you don't construe this in the wrong way, but I am disappointed that you didn't refer to responsibility, and self-sufficiency in that list. I think responsibility for ones own life is a more powerful influence than anything you refered to in that list. |
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shakuhachi
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| I agree absolutely with regard to the latter point, but I am always left puzzled by the fact that a disproportionate amount of black people languish in British prisons. I appreciate that this is a slight deviation from N/O but I mention it because is this not applicable to the US prison population too? Further, in the UK a disproportionate amount of black people fall into the lowest socio-economic groups too. Again, isn't this analogous to the situation in the US? |
In the US, it is because of the legacy of slavery. In Britain and Canada and Europe there is no legacy of slavery, yet the same situation prevails. How could that be?
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| I sincerely ask you, is there a more influential force keeping black people in this situation than black people themselves? |
Hmmm, puzzling. Excuse me for a moment while I put on my pair of Levi's.
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| Does the individual not bear any responsibility for ensuring that their perception of inequality is measured, and reasonable? Shouldn't parents who were saddled with negative influences during their own childhood bear responsibility for their children, and ensure that they have every chance of breaking the shackles of poverty and disenfranchisement? Is it acceptable that we apportion blame to the state for the failings of parents who shirked their obligations and ensured that their own children would continue to be stuck in the quigmire from which they themselves couldn't escape? |
Normal people would think so.
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| I hope you don't construe this in the wrong way, but I am disappointed that you didn't refer to responsibility, and self-sufficiency in that list. I think responsibility for ones own life is a more powerful influence than anything you refered to in that list. |
AMEN, brother. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| EFLtrainer: the epitomy of PC to the extreme. |
The acronym 'PC' I find to be as much an obstacle to debate as the term 'racist' - if we could get past throwing them around, perhaps discussions might reach new ground.
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Yeah, well that was my point: he was not willing to discuss the issue any more. I thought that was a bit much and close-minded.
But I suppose you're right; using the term PC was a tad silly on my part. |
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matthewwoodford
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Location: Location, location, location.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| shakuhachi wrote: |
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| I agree absolutely with regard to the latter point, but I am always left puzzled by the fact that a disproportionate amount of black people languish in British prisons. I appreciate that this is a slight deviation from N/O but I mention it because is this not applicable to the US prison population too? Further, in the UK a disproportionate amount of black people fall into the lowest socio-economic groups too. Again, isn't this analogous to the situation in the US? |
In the US, it is because of the legacy of slavery. In Britain and Canada and Europe there is no legacy of slavery, yet the same situation prevails. How could that be? |
The majority of blacks in the UK are West Indian and in the West Indies there was a history of slavery and of course colonialism. Not as extreme as the US, granted, but even so.
I also note in passing that there is no mention in the article of the race of the attackers.
No doubt given the proportion of blacks in the city it's a safe assumption that they were black, and you may argue - I'm sure someone will - that this is a typical example of PC media self-censorship. If you want to argue that it's not right that you are not allowed to blame black people for anything in the media nowadays, you could just say so directly and honestly at the outset instead of dropping hints that are easily construed as something much uglier. Assuming you wanted to. |
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shakuhachi
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| matthewwoodford wrote: |
| I also note in passing that there is no mention in the article of the race of the attackers. |
Was there ever any doubt? |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| shakuhachi wrote: |
| matthewwoodford wrote: |
| I also note in passing that there is no mention in the article of the race of the attackers. |
Was there ever any doubt? |
And we know he did what? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| bignate wrote: |
| But what are we to say, that all blacks are violent, agressive, barbaric people. I don't believe that, there are so many instances where this is not the case. It takes a wide number and a complex variety of societal conditions to induce the reactions that we are seeing in NO. Was there crime such as this prior to the disaster, rapes, murders, people shooting at police all over the US and the World, sure there was, were all those people black, no. |
God, no, blacks are not any more violent, aggressive, or barbaric than any other race. However, more than race is involved here, just like more than race is involved in many Islamics blowing themselves up. Likewise, would we call members of black culture or Islamic culture violent, aggressive, or barbaric? No, but we should acknowledge that it is predominantly Muslims who blow themselves up, and we should acknowledge that it is predominantly blacks who were looting and firing upon rescue workers.
I've said before that finger-wagging and dictating from outside Islam as to how they should reform their society is worse than pointless, its damaging. Does Islam need reform? I think there is ample evidence that in many places in the Middle East preachers are focusing people to resent outside forces and not examine themselves as the source of their problems.
As for the black community, let me first say I think there are analogies to Islam, and happily the situation is simply not as bad (no suicide bombers). However, there is still an alarming rate of single-parent homes and black males incarcerated. I'm not willing to say that no responsibility can be placed on the authorities (for while whites do drugs too, the injustices of the drug war have landed largely on blacks) and I will also not wag my finger at the larger, generalized black community (what really is the point?). But I will say I think there is a problem. |
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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:35 am Post subject: |
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Yes, a disproportionate number of black people languish in British prisons. And yes, in the UK a disproportionate amount of black people fall into the lowest socio-economic groups too.
Given that a disproportionate number of prisoners fall into the lowest socio-economic groups, you might conclude that being black has little to do with it. That's not entirely true, of course - there are cultural issues at play. In the UK, both perps of and victims of gun crime are far more likely to be black. Then again, there are white groups which are also much more likely to be imprisoned than the population at large.
A combination of racism in British society, low social mobility exacerbated by Thatcherite and Blairite policies and the particular failure of young black boys to succeed in education all contribute to the numbers of black people in prison.
In the US, it's very often put down to being nothing but a race issue. But for me, it still seems more of a class issue. It's long been suggested that countries with greater inequality, the levels of violence and property crime are higher, amongst many other effects. Evidence is available to support both sides. See the Berkeley and Harvard studies of '96, for example, which show extremely clearly correlatory evidence. Causality is a much thornier issue, of course. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:05 am Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| Racist idiot. The Mayor of N.O. has done an amzing job in my opinion. |
Seems that way alright. Military dude Honore seems to have won a lot of people's respect as well. FEMA in its slow response, Homeland Security head Michael Chertoff & good ol' "guitar - picking" / "New Orleans is sinking" GW
... well ... i think we know what MOST people's impressions are here 
Rumours Of US Troops Mutinies In Iraq
Wayne Madsen Report
9-5-5
US Embassy in Baghdad inquires into reports that American troops in Iraq have mutinied against their officers.
WMR has learned that the US embassy in Baghdad is checking into reports that U.S. troops in Iraq, including National Guardsmen, Army and Marine Corps Reserves, and regular military troops from Louisiana and Mississippi, have mutinied against their officers and are demanding to be immediately sent back home to help their families.
It is not known whether the reported mutinies involve physical violence.
The reports of rebellions among U.S. troops are filtering out of the Green Zone and at Baghdad International Airport from Iraqis who are working alongside their American counterparts at both locations.
http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/ |
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