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death from above

Joined: 31 Jul 2005 Location: in your head
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Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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i think the incendiary bomb attacks on dresden and tokyo were warcrimes, not acts of terrorism... but of course no war criminals are ever convicted on the victor's side.
"terrorism" should be defined as war crimes that are not committed at the nation-state level. |
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bigverne

Joined: 12 May 2004
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Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:30 am Post subject: |
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Corruption? Inequality? English teachers making innocent young women take their clothes off? |
It sure beats starving to death, working in a gulag and being forced to worship a podgy dwarf in an Elvis jumpsuit. There is inequality in the South, but most of the population enjoys a far better standard of living than in North Korea, where a tiny percentage of the population live like royalty as the rest enjoy an equality of poverty. The people of North Korea do not know this, because they are brainwashed from birth to believe that they are in a socialist paradise, which you are coming fairly close to legitimising. |
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hypnotist

Joined: 04 Dec 2004 Location: I wish I were a sock
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Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:36 am Post subject: |
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bigverne wrote: |
Quote: |
Corruption? Inequality? English teachers making innocent young women take their clothes off? |
It sure beats starving to death, working in a gulag and being forced to worship a podgy dwarf in an Elvis jumpsuit. There is inequality in the South, but most of the population enjoys a far better standard of living than in North Korea, where a tiny percentage of the population live like royalty as the rest enjoy an equality of poverty. The people of North Korea do not know this, because they are brainwashed from birth to believe that they are in a socialist paradise, which you are coming fairly close to legitimising. |
Bingo.
I find it amusing that even I, despite all my power and fame around the world, could legitimise the North Korean government. Nevertheless, it's very naive to think that North Koreans would want what the South have. Corruption and inequality is exactly what they have been led to believe sums up South Korean society. It will likely take generations for them to adjust to democracy. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003
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Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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If North Koreans knew the truth they would choose flawed South Korea over the North Korean gulag of our times- for real . Is there any real doubt about this? |
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hypnotist

Joined: 04 Dec 2004 Location: I wish I were a sock
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Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
If North Koreans knew the truth they would choose flawed South Korea over the North Korean gulag of our times- for real . Is there any real doubt about this? |
If there weren't any doubt over it, the North Korean government would have been overthrown a long time ago.
Lots of what they've been told is bad in SK society is, in its limited extent, the truth. Of course, they've only seen one side of it. But let's face it - joining with SK isn't going to suddenly pull them out of poverty.
I take it you're aware of just how difficult it is for individual North Korean exiles to adjust to live in South Korea. Imagine a whole country having to do the same. Many of them would suddenly be unemployed. I'm quite sure you'd find that a key part of the North's propaganda machine plays on their 'freedom' in the North vs economic slavery as part of the South. The first part may be hilarious to our ears, but you can't discount the truth in the second part.
They've lived for years under this rule. What do you think sounds more compelling to them - "We all starve together, until we rebuild our country, and then the food will be bountiful" or "You starve whilst your South Korean masters grow fat on your labour"? |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Talking to a lady from Germany this summer, she said that reunification has all but destroyed the German economy. I don't know how true that is but I can tell you she didn't seem too hopeful for the future of her country. Another thing she said was that because of the differences in government and education between East and West, the German people can't really see themselves as one people. They are as different as night and day.
Some sociologist has said that it will take at least 3 generations to work through those differences.
So if you wonder why some are opposed to reunification........... |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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Talking to a lady from Germany this summer, she said that reunification has all but destroyed the German economy. I don't know how true that is but I can tell you she didn't seem too hopeful for the future of her country. Another thing she said was that because of the differences in government and education between East and West, the German people can't really see themselves as one people. They are as different as night and day.
Some sociologist has said that it will take at least 3 generations to work through those differences.
So if you wonder why some are opposed to reunification........... |
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igotthisguitar

Joined: 08 Apr 2003 Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:42 am Post subject: Re: Has the US ever committed an act of terrorism? |
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Nowhere Man wrote: |
A simple question. |
Seemingly yes. Mind you, how the thread got sidetracked into a discussion of North vs. South Korea ... i have no idea.
Back to the question at hand.
dulouz wrote: |
Yes, during WWII in Dresden Germany. |
However, this was a joint "good guys simply following orders" Multi-force effort causing thousands of innocent civilians to effectively die, wasn't it?
Also, weren't there western funded Ford/GM auto plants, Bayer chemical factories, IBM investments and the like that allied warplanes just happened to miss?
I believe it was something like this alright.
War crimes committed by winners are rarely any crimes at all 
Last edited by igotthisguitar on Thu Sep 08, 2005 2:20 am; edited 4 times in total |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Location: Next to a River
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:53 am Post subject: |
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The (accidental)? shooting down of an Iranian airliner by the US could be classified as a terrorist action, if it was ever proven that it wasn't accidental. The attacking of an oil rig in a similar vein may be argued. There are probably a few more situations that could be viewed as an act of terrorism, as they didn't occur in a war. |
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Nowhere Man

Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:00 am Post subject: ... |
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Thanks to all for your responses.
I myself would define terrorism as attacks on civilian targets to produce a desired effect.
What I find intriguing (or, shall I say I find several points intriguing) is the idea that a nation-state, as suggested, can execute such actions as an "act of war".
Does that mean that terrorism is limited to entities smaller than the state-level?
We have Joe Dofu's suggestion that Sherman's torching Georgia was "terrorism" to wear out the South, but allied firebombings were not.
There are examples of NK terrorism that are buried in the past. That's all I will acknowledge of the North/South splinter argument.
But we do have Joo's suggestion that it is about intent.
Are there any acts of terrorism that sre executed for the frivolous, wanton destruction of it all?
I would say no.
I think they all are for one purpose or another.
Note: that doesn't mean I endorse them.
Likewise, does "war" exclude such acts as bona fide terrorism?
My argument would be that this gives states the right to "wage war" with disregard to whether such behavior constitutes terrorism and pins this label on smaller entities.
Note: for that matter, the US has not been "at war" since WWII.
Gopher, you refer to a previous post that I don't see on this thread. Moreover, your examples of mailing people death notices, in my opinion, falls under propoganda/psy-ops tactics. During WWII, the Allies mailed families of German dead with letters suggesting they had defected. This didn't actually harm anyone. It was just a mind -*beep*. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:27 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
If there weren't any doubt over it, the North Korean government would have been overthrown a long time ago. |
No cause North korea's govt is too creul.
If a govt is too creul its own citizens are helpless.Besides North Korea' citizens don't know the truth.
but in any case Neither Hitler nor STalin , nor Mao , nor Pol Pot , nor Idi Amin , nor Khomeni , nor Saddam were ever overthrown by their own people.
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Lots of what they've been told is bad in SK society is, in its limited extent, the truth. Of course, they've only seen one side of it. But let's face it - joining with SK isn't going to suddenly pull them out of poverty. |
If they knew the truth they would not choose rule by Kim Jong Il.
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I take it you're aware of just how difficult it is for individual North Korean exiles to adjust to live in South Korea. Imagine a whole country having to do the same. Many of them would suddenly be unemployed. I'm quite sure you'd find that a key part of the North's propaganda machine plays on their 'freedom' in the North vs economic slavery as part of the South. The first part may be hilarious to our ears, but you can't discount the truth in the second part. |
North Korea's people if they knew the truth would not choose rule by Kim JOng Il over the type of govt SK has.
Quote: |
They've lived for years under this rule. What do you think sounds more compelling to them - "We all starve together, until we rebuild our country, and then the food will be bountiful" or "You starve whilst your South Korean masters grow fat on your labour"? |
I think no one would choose NK way of govt or life.
NOrth Korea is a gulag , its government is illegitmate and no one would choose to live under Kim Jong Il.
A south Korea poor person would be a king compared to most North Koreans. |
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Pligganease

Joined: 14 Sep 2004 Location: The deep south...
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:50 am Post subject: |
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No. |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:23 am Post subject: |
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jinglejangle wrote: |
How bout this question.
Can anyone name a country which has NEVER commited an act of terrorism?
(Whatever that is) |
Yes, the Principality of Sealand.
http://www.sealandgov.com/ |
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