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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:16 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
(1) Native canadians represent 1.4 million of the country's 31 million people, yet according to Myth's conservative estimate account for 15% of the country's prison population.
Sounds like a really non- racist place.
(2) Come on now urban, we all know the native community suffers disproportionately high rates of social problems, unemployment etc compared to whiteys, not to mention blacks..and their history of slavery in Canada.
"Aboriginal women represent between one and two per cent of the Canadian population. Yet, they are 27 per cent of the women serving federal sentences."
Aboriginal peoples are over-represented in Canadian prisons. In 1999, the incarceration rate for Aboriginal people was 735 per 100,000 of the Canadian population, compared to a national average incarceration rate of 151 per 100,000.
(3)
Do you really think these ratios have changed in just 6 years? Prove it. |
numbers are mine
1. It is not my estimate. The 2004/2005 link which I provided makes that claim
2. Native Indians have a history of slavery in CANADA? Prove this assertation please
3. I already gave you an official link. You on the other hand used information Googled from a CHAT BOARD. Sorry I can't accept that.
Have you paid MOS his money yet by the way? |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:23 am Post subject: |
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I'm afraid, urb, that trying to deflect attention away from my legitimate questions will not cut it. So what if I'm unpopular or whatever: - this is not a personality issue, nor has this debate already been done with as you try to say. On the contrary, all evidence i posted up formerly was quickly ignored by you, similar to the stuff about native Americans.So stop ignoring evidence, stop ignoring questions,stop deflecting the argument.(thats Gopher/gord-type behavior). And tackle the issue:
How do you account for and excuse the overwhelming proportion of Native canadians in the country's prisons?
-the fact that Native Canadians have such relatively high rates of suicide, crime, live in dysfunctional societies in segregation from whites?
Why is that? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
I'm afraid, urb, that trying to deflect attention away from my legitimate questions will not cut it. So what if I'm unpopular or whatever: - this is not a personality issue, nor has this debate already been done with as you try to say. On the contrary, all evidence i posted up formerly was quickly ignored by you, similar to the stuff about native Americans.So stop ignoring evidence, stop ignoring questions,stop deflecting the argument.(thats Gopher/gord-type behavior). And tackle the issue:
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The issue is your "concern" for native people. As for what I posted it is very relevant. Why? Because the links I posted to show that your "concern" for native people is faked and born out of hatred for those of us who opposed apartheid. If you were genuinely concerned with the fate of Native people I might debate you, but as it is, I won't waste the time. Not until you admit up to it at any rate. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:37 am Post subject: |
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No wriggling out of it now urban.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
2. Native Indians have a history of slavery in CANADA? Prove this assertation please
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Already you reveal how little you know about your own country: I meant the statement to refer to blacks, but now that you've twisted it to refer to Indians, I'll back that one up as well.
Historian Marcel Trudel has recorded 4092 slaves throughout Canadian history, of which 2692 were aboriginal people, owned mostly by the French, and 1400 blacks owned mostly by the British, together owned by approximately 1400 masters.
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Slavery-in-Canada
The treatment of slaves in Canada was just as severe as their treatment in the United States. They were punished when they disobeyed their master and in some cases they were whipped, tortured or murdered.
http://www.bccns.com/history_slavery.html
For almost two centuries, both blacks and natives continued to work as slaves in Canada. They served as domestics and field hands, worked in the fur trade, and performed many other duties.
http://www.thebukowskiagency.com/ICameAsAStranger%20PV.htm |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
No wriggling out of it now urban.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
2. Native Indians have a history of slavery in CANADA? Prove this assertation please
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Already you reveal how little you know about your own country: I meant the statement to refer to blacks, but now that you've twisted it to refer to Indians, I'll back that one up as well.
Historian Marcel Trudel has recorded 4092 slaves throughout Canadian history, of which 2692 were aboriginal people, owned mostly by the French, and 1400 blacks owned mostly by the British, together owned by approximately 1400 masters.
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Slavery-in-Canada
The treatment of slaves in Canada was just as severe as their treatment in the United States. They were punished when they disobeyed their master and in some cases they were whipped, tortured or murdered.
http://www.bccns.com/history_slavery.html
For almost two centuries, both blacks and natives continued to work as slaves in Canada. They served as domestics and field hands, worked in the fur trade, and performed many other duties.
http://www.thebukowskiagency.com/ICameAsAStranger%20PV.htm |
I was talking about Canadians owning slaves, not the French or the British. Nice try though
CANADA didn't even become a nation until 1868. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
The issue is your "concern" for native people. As for what I posted it is very relevant. |
You are a trapped insect, a bunny in the headlights, desperately try to free itself from the advancing humiliation. asking my motives for debating is a rather pathetic way to admit defeat.
If you'd followed the native American thread, you would have seen my marked respect and interest in the character and culture of native indians. An ancient culture living sustainably with its environment without destroying it: a welcoming and honest people betrayed by greedy land-grabing whites.
Now: stop running away, and tackle the issues raised. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
The issue is your "concern" for native people. As for what I posted it is very relevant. |
You are a trapped insect, a bunny in the headlights, desperately try to free itself from the advancing humiliation. asking my motives for debating is a rather pathetic way to admit defeat.
If you'd followed the native American thread, you would have seen my marked respect and interest in the character and culture of native indians. An ancient culture living sustainably with its environment without destroying it: a welcoming and honest people betrayed by greedy land-grabing whites.
Now: stop running away, and tackle the issues raised. |
Once you have admitted your true motives, I will tackle these issues. Your motives are important as they reveal your true character. Attempting to sidestep the question this way is a poor way to admit that I am right. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:24 am Post subject: |
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First, I would like to make note that aboriginal is a negative term for some. Secondly I would like to make note that it is a very negative view.
Last edited by Summer Wine on Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:29 am Post subject: |
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Firstly, Rapier, I have respect for your views and where you come from as I haven't come from there:
| Quote: |
You are a trapped insect, a bunny in the headlights, desperately try to free itself from the advancing humiliation. asking my motives for debating is a rather pathetic way to admit defeat.
If you'd followed the native American thread, you would have seen my marked respect and interest in the character and culture of native indians. An ancient culture living sustainably with its environment without destroying it: a welcoming and honest people betrayed by greedy land-grabing whites.
Now: stop running away, and tackle the issues raised.
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Secondly, I might have missed the mark. But lets re-dicuss. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
I was talking about Canadians owning slaves, not the French or the British. Nice try though
CANADA didn't even become a nation until 1868. |
How many sidesteps can you come out with??? This the third nowHahahaha  Oh, so it was all the fault of the French and the British now was it??
We're talking about events that formed your country since the invasion of whites (your forebears,your culture), in the land now known as Canada.
You're saying that everything before 1868 is irrelevant when discussing the history and formation of your country??
if you really want to sweep a terrible history under the carpet and dismiss it as irrelevant, you still haven't answered the issue of the current modern-day incarceration of native Canadians. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| Rapier, let it go please. Please!! |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
Secondly, I might have missed the mark. But lets re-dicuss. |
to be honest summer wine (and I respect your views too), my casual investigation of Canadian and american history is spurred on because I plan to visit there next year. i have a genuine curiosity and sympathy ( a little romanticized perhaps) for native culture borne out of my environmental/natural/conservationist interest.
baiting urb with the real details of Canada's past is just one slant, especially satisfying as he formerly made out his country to be whiter than white while heaping criticism on my own. Nevertheless I am seeing things in sympathy with native peoples- which to me bore a rich culture, were unfairly treated, and simultaneously lived sustainably with a far more rich and natural landscape than exists now.
but it appears that online myth has capitulated and fled the podium already, so we'll have to just call it a quick victory and forget about it. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:09 am Post subject: |
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Oh rapier, you missed my point and maybe I missed yours.
Mine is you can still win the battle and lose the war. Enough with the anti this and anti that. Please, accept that they won't agree with you and let it go, Please. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| rapier wrote: |
No wriggling out of it now urban.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
2. Native Indians have a history of slavery in CANADA? Prove this assertation please
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Already you reveal how little you know about your own country: I meant the statement to refer to blacks, but now that you've twisted it to refer to Indians, I'll back that one up as well.
Historian Marcel Trudel has recorded 4092 slaves throughout Canadian history, of which 2692 were aboriginal people, owned mostly by the French, and 1400 blacks owned mostly by the British, together owned by approximately 1400 masters.
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Slavery-in-Canada
The treatment of slaves in Canada was just as severe as their treatment in the United States. They were punished when they disobeyed their master and in some cases they were whipped, tortured or murdered.
http://www.bccns.com/history_slavery.html
For almost two centuries, both blacks and natives continued to work as slaves in Canada. They served as domestics and field hands, worked in the fur trade, and performed many other duties.
http://www.thebukowskiagency.com/ICameAsAStranger%20PV.htm |
I was talking about Canadians owning slaves, not the French or the British. Nice try though
CANADA didn't even become a nation until 1868. |
Nice research Rapier.. interesting.. and something I never knew about before.
In regards to TUM's response about them actually being British and French.. that was pretty much the case throughout.. even today the mass majority of U.S. Southerners (black or white) have British names.. except of course the Lousisina area (French). Being that the mass majority of white people in Canada were (and probably still are) greatly of either British or French origin - pretty strong case that they were indeed of the same ancestory (despite a country not officially in existance at the time).
Anyhow, great research Rapier.. interesting stuff.. |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
| First, I would like to make note that aboriginal is a negative term for some. Secondly I would like to make note that it is a very negative view. |
I'm not sure where you're from, Summer Wine, but in Canada, there is no universally agreed-upon term for the people who lived there before European colonization.
For example, "Indian" is one of the oldest and most inflammatory terms, but it's still used by the Federal Government (as in "Department of Indian Affairs") because there has not been a suitable alternative.
Preferred terms vary between western, central and eastern groups, but where I come from, "Aboriginal" is a perfectly acceptable term. "Native" and "First Nations" are also fine, though some terms include the Metis (French-"Indian" mix) and others are more exclusive.
Please don't hassle Rapier about this-- the last time he talked about this group, he was calling them "Red Indians." |
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