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SuperFly
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Location: In the doghouse
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 Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:50 am Post subject: |
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This may have been mentioned before, saw this show on forensic files (i think it was forensic files on court tv) it was about an hour long show with interview from both sides of the life after death camp. Doctors who dealt primarily with children who had died and were resuscitated, were in the life after death side, explained that when the children were well enough to talk about it, they were asked to draw pictures of what they saw. Every child they dealt with, consistently drew very similar and happy pictures of a heavenly realm of some sort - they showed the pictures, kids described being very happy, alert, playing with other kids... (no xboxes though) the pictures I saw were all very happy looking. NONE of the kids they mentioned were religous nor had strong connections to religion. One drawing they showed a kid on a bed with a box with two buttons (one red one green) next to her...the three people dressed in white came to the bedside and told her that if she pushed the green button, she would go with them, red button would take her back to her parents. She choose to go with her parents. There were three other bodies in the corner of the drawing - explained that these were babies about to be re-born.
Here is a link to a news story But it's not the same doctor they showed on the after death episode...
http://www.nbc10.com/news/3253894/detail.html
Then they showed the other side of the camp. Deeply religious people who were standing in front of an audience telling people how they saw hell, demons and nothing pleasant in their life after death experience.
Another adult who had no religious beliefs at all went with her relatives to the light, and was restored to consciousness against her will...she described that her uncle had to push her back into her body because she didn't want to come back to that body...she felt no connection at all to the flesh right away...it was a huge release for her and the way she described it, no pain untill she was pushed back in.
The skeptics were saying that it's all about the electrical stuff goin on in our brains, on the other hand why did all those people they interviewed describe similar experiences?
Then they cut to all these recently reported violent death cases just within the last 30 years that have been documented with proof in photographs (which they show in this segment) -- I'll give you two examples of the many they mentioned. First one was a guy who'd been shot in the abdomen with a shotgun blast. Three days later a baby is born of a relative and the child has a birth mark that is in the same exact pattern.
Now check this out...they showed the following story on this show and the guy looks exactly like the guy in the picture! They interviewed him and he's not the kind of person who is seeking any kind of noteriety...has had the same job for years...not the kind of person who would make it up.
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Someone Else's Yesterday --- By Jeffrey J. Keene
As most of the visitors to this site know, John B. Gordon (1832-1904) was a Confederate General during the Civil War. He participated in most of the major Eastern theater battles including the Seven Days, Sharpsburg ( where he was wounded five times), Chancellorsville, Gettysburg, The Wilderness, Spotsylvania, Monocacy, Petersburg, and others, eventually surrendering with Robert E. Lee at Appomattox in April, 1865. An outstanding soldier, he was one of the few successful generals of the Civil War who was not a West Point graduate. After the war he served as U.S. Senator and Governor of Georgia. He died January 9, 1904 in Miami Florida.
But did his biography end when he died in 1904?
Jeffrey J. Keene, who was born in Danbury, Connecticut and raised in Westport, Connecticut, is a decorated firefighter, and presently an Assistant Fire Chief with the Westport Fire Department. A Civil War researcher, he has visited most of the major battle sites in the North and South.
Jeffrey Keene is a decorated fire fighter and an Assistant Fire Chief in Westport, CT. Like Captain Robert Snow, Jeff Keene is a highly responsible member of his community who, unexpectedly, found himself researching a past life identity. In this pursuit, significant information often came to him through synchronistic events and in time, Mr. Keene came to the conclusion that he was being guided in his research efforts.
Let me quote from the forward of Jeff's book, Someone Else's Yesterday, The Confederate General and Connecticut Yankee: A Past Life Revealed.
"Like most people, I was stumbling through life minding my own business when all at once the world started having its way with me. Suddenly, the extraordinary became ordinary and strange occurrences throughout my life started to make sense. I found that I had been a friend to some very famous people, people that I was not even aware that I had met. I was being given insights that answered some of life's greatest questions. Before too long I found myself on the front page of a state wide newspaper and featured in an Arts and Entertainment Network documentary titled, Beyond Death. Getting to the point were the word "coincidence" was worn very thin, I decided to accept the fact that I was being guided and opened myself to what life wanted to show me. Long after I had been convinced of a past life, unusual events kept reinforcing my conclusions, so much so that the only reason I could come up with for such revelations was that I was to share them with others."
Jeff's story begins in May, 1991, when he was on vacation with his wife, Anna. They were looking for antiques and stopped in Sharpsburg, Maryland, which was where the Civil War battle of Antietam was fought. Though Jeff had never read a book on the Civil War or had any affinity for that era, he felt compelled to visit the battlefield. At a portion of the field called "Sunken Road," Jeff listened to an audiotaped narration of the events that took place there in 1862. After listening to the tape, as Jeff walked away from the battlefield monument, he had the following reaction:
"A wave of grief, sadness and anger washed over me. Without warning I was suddenly consumed by sensations. Burning tears ran down my cheeks. It became difficult to breathe. I gasped for air, as I stood transfixed in the old roadbed. To this day I cannot tell you how much time transpired, but as these feelings, this emotional overload passed, I found myself exhausted as if I had run a marathon. Crawling up the steep embankment to get out of the road, I turned and looked back. I was a bit shaken to say the least and wondered at what had just taken place. It was difficult getting back to the car because I felt so weak. I had regained most of my normal composure on the way back and said nothing to Anna about what had just happened. What could I say? How could I explain it to her? I did not have any answers, just questions. "
Before leaving Sharpsburg, Jeff and Anna visited a gift shop. A magazine, Civil War Quarterly, (Special Edition, Antietam), caught Jeff's eye and he purchased it, along with a bullet found in the area. At home, Jeff placed the magazine in a conspicuous place, a drawer that held the family's phone books, but he did not look at the journal for another year and a half. When Jeff finally read the magazine's account of the Battle of Antietam, he once again experienced a strong wave of emotions. When he turned to a page that featured a picture of Brigadier General John B. Gordon, Jeff was shocked to see himself in Gordon's visage. Gordon had nearly died after incurring multiple gunshot wounds at Sunken Road, in the battle of Antietam. Recall that it was at Sunken Road, over a year before, that Jeff had experienced overwhelming emotions of grief, anger and sadness.
Jeff's book documents past life memories as well as habits and traits he has in common with Gordon. These include a preference to stand with arms crossed, similar clothing tastes and scars on his face and body that reflect Gordon's battle wounds. Two symbolic events are recounted. One involves orders written by General Lee on September 9, 1862, which defined the Confederate Army's plans to invade the North. Nine copies of the orders were made. One copy was lost in transit and recovered by Union soldiers. This information gave the Union Army detailed information regarding the position of Confederate troops and led to the battle of Antietam. In sum, orders written on September 9 resulted in the Civil War conflict in which John B. Gordon was severely wounded and almost died. It was at this battle site that Jeff Keene had his emotional past life reaction. The symbolic event in our current era is Jeff Keene's birthday, which is September 9, 1947. Jeff Keene was born on a date, September 9, that symbolizes the battle of Antietam and Gordon's wounding. It appears that the soul can time an individual's birth to coincide with a date that is symbolically important. This phenomenon is also observed in the case of William Barnes, as Mr. Barnes was born on the anniversary date of Titanic's sinking. Mr. Barnes, in his prior lifetime as Thomas Andrews, died on the Titanic.
Another symbolic event involving the date September 9 occurred on Jeff Keene's 30th birthday. On that day, Jeff was taken to the emergency room to be treated for neck and facial pain. No cause for the pain syndrome was found. The location of pain experienced by Jeff Keene corresponded to facial wounds incurred by John B. Gordon at the battle of Antietam. Gordon was 30 years of age at the time of his injuries. Keep in mind that Jeff's emergency room visit occurred in 1977, which was 15 years before Jeff became aware of his connection to Gordon.
In his book, Someone Else's Yesterday, Jeff includes documents that show similarities between his writing style and that of John B. Gordon's. In his later years, General Gordon wrote a book called Remembrances of the Civil War, which provides material for such analysis. Let us compare two passages, one from Gordon's book, describing the efforts of his men to put out a fire in Wrightsville, Pennsylvania, and one from Keene regarding his fire department's response to an emergency incident. My observation is that the two documents seem to be written in the same "voice." A format linguistic analysis, which is featured in both Jeff's book and my own, has been done which reveals significant structural similarities. Let us now review these passages
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Link to site: http://usa-civil-war.com/Books/books_general.html
I'm trying to keep an open mind.
Socrates said: All I know is that I know nothing.
Cya in the Fields of Elysium! |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:14 am Post subject: |
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I know one woman who described an after-death experience, but contrary to the program's examples, she was both very religious, and very positive. She died (this time there wasn't much left of her body to come back to in a car crash a few months later) before the movie "Contact" was released, but her description of a heaven-type place was eerily similar to Jodie Foster's beach experience. I caught my breath when I saw that scene, because I had pictured it in my mind's eye when my friend told the story.
She also described being very annoyed at being revived. Do you think the program omitted certain stories that didn't fall into the categories "People with faith get torched after death/Non-religious people have Super-Happy-Fun-Time?" |
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SuperFly
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Location: In the doghouse
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:17 am Post subject: |
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The religious mention only lasted a few minutes though...the people giving their speeches in front of the audience part was when they talked about these deeply religious people who had a lot of guilt when they passed. Then went on to say they saw demons and many many people coming down the stairs into a fiery hell, one guys said " It was NOT a good experience for me..."
Thing is, they were all able to describe in great great detail, everything that was happening on the operating table when they were clinically dead and then brought back to conciousness. And that woman in the show went on and on about how annoyed she was and didn't want to come back. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| Birth and death is an on-going cycle. Chances are that we've all had many births and deaths, many different familes on many different planets (and in many different species...) Like I've mentioned before, while the spirit-soul is trapped in the womb of it's next mother, part of the process is that it consciously recalls it's past ten (or more) lifetimes. So, these "near-death" experiences may actually be part of the review process - some people may have just come back from a hellish - or heavenly - planet to take birth on earth once again...(Both "hell" and "heaven" are usually just one-lifetime trips...) Once one makes it back to the transcendental spiritual world though - or real home - one never returns to this inferior world of repeated birth and death (it'll just seem like a bad dream...) |
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Red
Joined: 05 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:09 am Post subject: |
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The white light and the euphoria and the visions are nothing but brain damge. Accept it.
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| However, there is more to all of us than our primate bodies. There is a higher place we can visit where we can (with much work) teach ourselves to think from a Greater Perspective�Cosmic Consciousness. |
No, there's not. This feeling exists entirely within your skull. |
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chronicpride
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 10:13 am Post subject: |
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I think what Red is getting at is the 'show me the proof' argument. I understand that angle. However, contrary to what we often take for granted, we are really not that advanced of a civilization to unlock all the riddles of life, much less the meaning of life. The science argument is not solid, as the medical community is still unlocking riddles and has a ton of riddles left to go. Hell, no one has still even come out and tied down the historical debate about why we dream. Yet, we go about our life knowing and accepting that we do it, nonetheless. And police and intelligence agencies still contract out to remote viewers for investigative assistance, despite no one knowing how the hell they can pinpoint which well in which county of which state that little Billy has fallen into.
Point being, is that life has enough quirks and anomalies kicking around that I think it'd be ignorant to rule out anything, given how young and underdeveloped we are as a civilization.
I do agree, however, that there is so much religious capitalization on our ignorance and our fear of mortality, that it's incredibly difficult to distinguish what is a coping mechanism or a genuine article. |
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Red
Joined: 05 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| No, what I'm getting at is that the evidence points towards all of these beliefs of the supernatural are created by the imaginations/delusions/brain-damage of the people supporting them. No matter how you cut it, at it's best it's simply a coping mechanism. |
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jayjayjay
Joined: 27 Aug 2005
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Red wrote: |
The white light and the euphoria and the visions are nothing but brain damge. Accept it.
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| However, there is more to all of us than our primate bodies. There is a higher place we can visit where we can (with much work) teach ourselves to think from a Greater Perspective-Cosmic Consciousness. |
No, there's not. This feeling exists entirely within your skull. |
��Bartender, another Brain Damage on the rocks please. And don't worry about my friend passed out on the floor, for there's no kind of concoction in the world that will bring him out of it. He's hopelessly asleep and there��s just nothing anyone can do for him." |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Did you create your own brain? Did your parents have the scientific knowledge needed to create such a wonderfully complex mechanistic organism? Is conscious life a product of chemical reactions and random combinations and collisions of molecules and atoms? Or, are these things by-products of eternal conscious life - which is non-physical?
Although scientists have been able to explain all other known phenomena by means of laws of physics they have never been able to logically explain consciousness. Consciousness is the symptom of the soul (and is suspended on subtle life-airs in the region of the heart.) Generally, our consciousness pervades our individual bodies through the circulation of blood. Every living entity has at least some consciousness - including trees and even planets - and even the universal body. In the mundane world only human forms of life have sufficiently developed conscioiusness to philosophically inquire about the Absolute Truth - or understand something about God.
It is intelligent to be - at least initially - skeptical of anything being presented as being spiritual - or coming from beyond the material world. The "Supersoul" expansion of God situated next to our spirit-soul is consious of all thoughts and desires (in every body) and is the constant companion of the living entity throughout its journey in the material universes. When a fortunate person comes in contact with Absolute Truth in the form of words spoken by God (delivered purely by His authorized representative) it resonates or rings true in our heart as the Supersoul is pleased to encourage us to take up the spiritual path back to our original home. However, when hearing or reading a scripture like Bhagavad-gita one needs to at least theoretically accept the possiblity that the speaker, Krishna, is God - the supreme authority. It is also a must that the message of the 'Gita not be adulterated by non-devotee speculation or "God-envious" commentary. Bhagavad-gita As It Is translated by Bhaktivedanta Swami, a pure devotee spiritual master coming in perfect disciplic succession going back 5000 years, is the most spiritually potent presentation of the philosophy and science of the soul and God available...
If life comes from chemicals, why can't scientists or doctors simply supply or inject the right combination of chemicals to revive dead bodies? Until they can do so they are just bluffing and cheating (claiming the breakthrough discovery to be "only a few years" away ...) With bhakti yoga one can personally experiment (ideally under the guidance of a bona fide spiritual master) with spiritual techniques (freely given) and see for oneself if the process is effective for realization of self and God... |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:59 am Post subject: |
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| Well?... |
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coldcrush
Joined: 02 Apr 2004
Location: melbourne.... Posts: 1
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:49 am Post subject: |
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Not bad. You? |
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drgoo
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Location: Home, sweet home
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| The Cube wrote: |
There's an argument that we must have a "soul" or at least that the essence of who we are is non-physical. It goes like this:
Throughout our lives, our atoms, one by one get replaced with new atoms through natural processes like eating, cells dying and our body giving birth to new cells, etc. It does this so that we replace all the atoms in our body about once every 7 years.
Now consider a jigsaw puzzle analogy. If you put together a 7 piece jigsaw puzzle. Replace one piece with one from another puzzle once a year. After 7 years, you will have that other puzzle. Identical no doubt, but it will be that other puzzle. Not the same puzzle.
The same thing happens with us. But we KNOW that we are still the same person despite this process.
Why? Because the essence of who we are is non-physical. Not bound by physical rules or space or time.
I don't 'believe" this. I don't "believe" anything. It is logical. |
It isn't logical to draw conclusions that aren't based on the premises. The fact that the body regenerates cells doesn't mean there is some non-physical force doing anything to accomplish this.
The body replaces cells through a process involving entirely physical elements (protein synthesis, DNA, mitosis, etc.) so why assume there is some non-physical entity involved?
You're assuming things (an outside agent acting to rebuild the body), and unless you state your assumptions and show how your conclusions are based on those assumptions, you are not being logical.
An analogy is not a logical proof. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Like I stated before (borrowing from another's thesis I'll give a link to...) because scientists have not - and can not - logically explain the existence of consciousness although they have explained all other known phenomena in terms of physical laws it indirectly proves that consciousness - the symptom of the soul - is non-physical.
http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/fedeescienza/englishnf.html
Actually, I presented this argument on another thread last summer so I'll copy from that:
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Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:08 am Post subject:
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Well, I said that I would offer scientific proof of the existence of the soul (on this more-or less hijacked thread) so I perused many articles on the subject before deciding to narrow my scope to presenting a single thesis that I've found to be at once scientifically persuasive and intellectually accessible to the intelligent layman. When I did a google search for "scientific proof for the existence of the soul" - voila! - I got an exact match as the Italian author of a book of that exact title was plugging it on a science web forum www.scienceforums.com/showthread.php?t=1516 I was impressed that the author, Marco Biagini, Ph.D. in Solid State Physics (hopefully not obtained in Bangkok...) convincingly handled challenges to his theses by various "scientists" (and aspiring scientists) on that forum. Biagini also has his own website at http://xoomer.virgilio.it/fedeescienza/englishnf.html As I'm mainly just quoting verbatim from his work, I can really take no credit for the following scientific proof of the soul:
"Materialism and atheism are incompatible with the scientific view of the universe. Science has in fact proved that all chemical, biological and cerebral processes consist only in some successions of elementary physical processes, determined in their turn only by the laws of quantum mechnics. Such a view of biological processes does not allow to account for the existence of consciousness, which existence implies then the presence in man of an unphysical element. Such element, being unphysical, can be identified as the soul." Biagini points to fundamental inconsistencies inherent in the "typical" arguments used by materialists, such as the concept of emergent, macroscopic or holistic property, complexity, information, etc... "Basically, science has proved that the so-called emergent properties are nothing but arbitrary classifications of successions of elementary physical processes; in other words, they are only abstract concepts used to describe in an approximated way the real processes. Since consciousness is a preliminary necessary condition for the existence of any concepts or classifications, the materialists attempts to explain consciousness as an emergent property are absolutely inconsistent from a logical point of view. No entities which existence presupposes the existence of consciousness can be considered the cause of the existence of consciousness."
Biagini further suggests that the "problem of the existence of the soul is connected to the one of God's existence." He offers the following independent argument "to prove directly the existence of God.":
"Science has proven that the state of the universe is determined by some specific mathematical principles and equations, the laws of physics. However, we know that mathematics can not exist by itself, but exists only as a thought in a conscious and intelligent mind. In fact, a mathematical equation is only an abstract concept, which existence presupposes the existence of a person who conceives such a concept.
Therefore, the existence of this mathematically structured universe does imply the existence of a personal God conceiving it. Some people object that mathematical equations are not the principles ruling the universe, but they are only a representation imagined by man ...This argument does not stand...It is not possible to account for the extraordinary agreement between the experimental data and the laws of physics without admitting that the state of the universe ...must necessarily be determined by some specific mathematical laws. The existence of these mathematical laws implies the existence of a personal, conscious and intelligent Creator. Atheism is incompatible with the view of the universe presented by modern science."
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cruisemonkey
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Location: Hopefully, the same place as my luggage.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
| cruisemonkey wrote: |
I figure there is 'nothingness' - neither pleasure or pain - no consciousness.
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Why do you figure that? What personal experience have you had or has another had that makes you so certain, that you are willing to risk the worst case scenario. Admittedly, you may not have much choice what happens to you after this experience of worldly boot camp.
I guess I simply don't understand why people who have no personal experience to back up their beliefs would simply disbelive or believe something because someone else told them it was or wasn't possible.
I know there's a hell. I just don't understand why anyone would want to go there, I would not wish it on my worst enemy. I would not wish it on anyone. |
So Summer Wine, what's Hell like? Logic leads me to conclude you obviously have personal experience of it.   |
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Babayaga
Joined: 28 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe we should re--read "The Death of Ivan Ilyitch" by Tolstoy. Apparently, you go through a tunnel---in Tolstoy's book it was a sack. Medical evidence corroborates, that people who had a near--death experience reported that they saw themselves move through either a tunnel or a sack.
Personally, I imagine that it would be just one long sleep. |
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