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| Do You Feel Safer? |
| American: Yes |
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4% |
[ 1 ] |
| American: No |
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42% |
[ 9 ] |
| Non-American: Yes |
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9% |
[ 2 ] |
| Non-American: No |
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42% |
[ 9 ] |
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| Total Votes : 21 |
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| Author |
Message |
The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
| I tried that, but ... ...(The poster in question, by the way, has so far declined to say if he feels safer - perhaps he needs to take a good look at the title at the top of the page.) |
Don't Feed The Bears!! Better yet, Don't Be a Bear!!
This has been a public frustration announcement. |
He said stuff that ain't so.
As much as he has posted on Islam and terrorism and such he would certainly know that Iraq was not an Islamic country, not prior to the US invasion, though possibly now - yet he says it here, later amends it to "muslim country" and asks us to make sense of him when he makes little or none on his own ... he claims there is no comparison with the Struggles between Britain and Ireland and the current jihad vs crusade, a.k.a. The Global War On Terrorism and yet the obvious parallels are there - what do you want me to do, just let obvious lies and convenient subterfuge slide?
Stuff that ain't so, just simply ain't. That's what it is. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| As much as he has posted on Islam and terrorism and such he would certainly know that Iraq was not an Islamic country, not prior to the US invasion, though possibly now - yet he says it here, later amends it to "muslim country" and asks us to make sense of him when he makes little or none on his own ... he claims there is no comparison with the Struggles between Britain and Ireland and the current jihad vs crusade, a.k.a. The Global War On Terrorism and yet the obvious parallels are there - what do you want me to do, just let obvious lies and convenient subterfuge slide? |
Simply, yes. I'm trying to keep this focused. How about cutting and pasting into a thread intended for debate? |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:21 am Post subject: |
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You can start a thread, but you can't control it.
It's a fact. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
You can start a thread, but you can't control it.
It's a fact. |
Yeah, I know. I said "trying"...
Aigoooo...  |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Was Iraq under Saddam an Islamic country or a muslim country? |
You're being extremely pedantic. When I said Islamic country, I did not mean Islamic state, like Iran, Sudan or Saudi. I was using the terms Islamic and muslim interchangeably, which should have been fairly obvious, since Iraq was never a Shariah state. So, no it is not an Islamic state, but it is a muslim country.
The reason that it is irrelevant is that it does not really matter how we infidels perceive Iraq, but how other muslims see Iraq, and as I have stated, any attack on any muslim land, will be perceived as an attack on Islam. The reasons do not matter. All that matters is that infidels are attacking muslims. This is important because any action that Western nations take to defend themselves, will be interpreted as 'attacks on Islam'. As such, we should not be overly concerned that muslims are getting angry, because this would have happened anyway.
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| Prior to the invasion of Iraq, most muslims around the world were (perhaps) able to conceive that the War on Terror was possibly not a religious crusade against Islam. |
That sounds like idle speculation to me. The war in Afghanistan was already being used as a recruting tool and many muslim groups in the UK (for one) opposed it.
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| Do you feel safer, Bigverne? |
Than in 2001, not really, but I place the blame for that primarily on Jihadists, not on Bush. The fact is that after 9-11, there is nothing that Bush could have done that would not have angered muslims, short of acceding to their (many and changing) demands.
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| The Bush Adminstration response has been far different to the one adopted by England, the one that actually DID prove successful. |
Yes it has, but that is because, as you fail to recognise, we are dealing with a far more dangerous and uncompromising foe. It is highly simplistic to say that since such an approach worked in N.Ireland it could work in the context of Islamic terrorism. You have yet to answer my queries as to how you would go about negotiating, and indeed whom would you negotiate with to put an end to Islamic terrorism. Please tell us, how you would negotiate with these people?
The peace process was able to come about largely because the IRA made very large concessions. They gave up the goal of uniting Ireland by force and committed themselves to the democratic process. Moreover, the IRA had very clear and identifiable aims, namely a united Ireland. The grievances of Jihadists are many and changing, and, as they are religious zealots, they are far less open to compromise.
| Quote: |
| Do you feel safer, Bigverne? |
Melodrama adds nothing to your argument.
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| The conflict between Ireland and The Crown was at heart a relilgious conflict, and everyone knew that, everyone acknowledged that. |
You're wrong, everyone did not acknowledge it. Some viewed it as a political struggle, some as an ethnic conflict between Irish and British. Certainly the IRA were more motivated by nationalism than Catholicism. Please explain, specifically, how this pertains to the problem of Al Qaeda and other Jihadist groups?
I am waiting with baited breath to hear your proposals for bringing Islamic fundamentalists to the negotiating table. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure it is. If it is, why did you say it? You did say that Iraq was an Islamic country. I'm curious why you would say that when the historical record shows it was the most secular nation in the region. Do women have MORE rights today than they did in February of 2003? Do they have less?
Do tell. |
Now they have the right to vote, the right to read opinions other than what Saddam approved , they have the right to travel, the right to get on the internet , and the right to have satalite dishes.
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| Prior to the invasion of Iraq, most muslims around the world were (perhaps) able to conceive that the War on Terror was possibly not a religious crusade against Islam. Today, I doubt that this is so. Disagree, if you can. |
many of them still don't.
Besides if anyone is is angry now but was silent when Saddam gassed the Kurds, silent when Bin Laden killed muslims, silent when Khomeni killed tens of thousands , and/or silent when Haffaz Assad destroyed the city of Hama
Well then their opinon lacks moral standing
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| On this I think we can agree. The world does not need any more Shariah states, which Iraq could well become. But, that's democracy, and as people will soon find out Islamic style democracy will be nothing like the liberal Western kind. In fact, it will barely resemble democracy at all. |
A huge improvement over the regime of Saddam Hussein.
| Quote: |
| You have in no way addressed the means used by the British govt that brought the IRA to a point where they put down their guns and held them out in their hands so that others could take them away. You don't want to do that. The Bush Adminstration response has been far different to the one adopted by England, the one that actually DID prove successful. |
So what are you getting at Bob that the US ought to negotiate or give in to Al Qaida? Is that what you are suggesting?
Please make it clear what are you suggesting.
How about if the US negotiate or give in to the Klan? The Klan thinks they are religous too. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| A huge improvement over the regime of Saddam Hussein. |
Well, that remains to be seen. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| You have yet to answer my queries as to how you would go about negotiating, and indeed whom would you negotiate with to put an end to Islamic terrorism. Please tell us, how you would negotiate with these people? |
Still we wait for the Bobster's arrangements for a 'sit-down' with the Jihadists? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| How's the peace plan coming along Bob? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:19 am Post subject: |
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Before Bob reveals to us his Downing Street Declaration, here's some food for thought regarding the likelihood of making peace with Islamic extremists.
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php?menuID=2&subID=46
A chilling message for the infidels
As Bali recovers, Scott Atran gets a lesson in global relations from a jailed Muslim leader
Just six weeks before last Saturday's terrorist atrocity in Bali, in a jail cell in Jakarta, I interviewed Abu Bakar Bashir, the alleged spiritual leader of Jemaah Islamiyah (JI), al-Qa'eda's main ally in the region, and the group on which western attention is focused in the hunt for culprits.
SA: What can the West, especially the US, do to make the world more peaceful?
ABB: They have to stop fighting Islam. That's impossible because it is sunnatullah [destiny, a law of nature], as Allah has said in the Koran. If they want to have peace, they have to accept to be governed by Islam.
SA: So this fight will never end?
ABB: Never. This fight is compulsory. Muslims who don't hate America sin. What I mean by America is George Bush's regime. There is no iman [belief] if one doesn't hate America.
SA: How can the American regime and its policies change?
ABB: We'll see. As long as there is no intention to fight us and Islam continues to grow there can be peace. This is the doctrine of Islam. Islam can't be ruled by others. Allah's law must stand above human law. There is no [example] of Islam and infidels, the right and the wrong, living together in peace.
This man is the ideological brother of Osama Bin Laden, and like all Islamic Jihadis has one end goal in mind, the supremacy of Islam and the subjugation of the world under Shariah.
So, how Bob, will you persuade these zealots to abandon their Jihad? |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:30 am Post subject: ... |
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First Post:
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I think we should take Iraq and Iran and combine them into one country and call it Irate. All the pissed off people should live in one place and get it over with.
Denis Leary
American Actor, b.1957 |
Perhaps we shouldn't have run a democratic government out of Iran in the 50's for nationalizing their oil.
Then we might now call it "finished".
What say you, Captain Hook? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Perhaps we shouldn't have run a democratic government out of Iran in the 50's for nationalizing their oil. |
Perhaps you should contact 'Doc' from Back to the Future, jump in the De Lorean, and right all the terrible wrongs that have been done to the Ummah, and then we might not have this problem. But then again we might. Who knows?
In the meantime, how do you plan to persuade Osama Bin Laden and other Jihadis to abandon their Jihad, and how do you respond to the above comments from another man who seems to have woefully misunderstood his own religion?
Let me just remind you:
"As long as there is no intention to fight us and Islam continues to grow there can be peace. This is the doctrine of Islam. Islam can't be ruled by others. Allah's law must stand above human law. There is no [example] of Islam and infidels, the right and the wrong, living together in peace." |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:57 am Post subject: ... |
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We could go on...
But, we could also just square things.
You're against Islam.
I'm against your religion.
I'm just being pro-active and keeping your BS from entering my hemisphere. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:06 am Post subject: |
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As I thought, you have no suggestions as to how to counter the Jihadists.
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| I'm against your religion. |
I'm atheist.
Seriously though, do you have any views on how we should counter the danger of Islamic terrorism? What would be your approach? Do you favour negotiations like Bob, and if so, how would you persuade the Jihadists to abandon their Jihad? |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:09 am Post subject: ... |
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Seriously, I'm an atheist too.
But I'm against your religion.
You ain't preaching atheism, big boy. |
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