Korean Job Discussion Forums

mithridates · Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:23 pm Post subject:

Yes, clearly nothing to do with Europe. Rolling Eyes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archbishop_of_Constantinople

bigverne · Joined: 12 May 2004

By your reasoning, Nigeria is part of Europe as they have Anglican Archbishops.

jinglejangle · Joined: 19 Feb 2005 Location: Far far far away.

You know, maybe this is picking at straws maybe, but I somewhat doubt Austria had a great deal of choice about what they did during WWII regarding the Jews.

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't they forcibly annexed prior to the war?

Joo, Turkeys a decent ally, but I think you paint too strong a picture of them as our friends. Bear in mind this is the self same nation which refused our troops passage into Iraq at the last moment prior to the war, and made things a lot more difficult for us. Remember also that these are the ones who threatened to invade Iraq, US or no US if there was any sign that Iraqi Kurdistan might break free.

It's largely because of our pandering to the Turks on the Kurdish issue that Iraq even survived intact over the last decade. We encouraged the Kurds to revolt, and then backed down when they were winning due to Turkish pressure. We backed out of sending them the promised support and then allowed Iraq to use helicopter gunships in the Northern No Fly Zone to crush the Kurdish rebels. Which led to the Kurds being massacered. Again.

Aside from that, since the cold war I can't really think of much that Turkey HAS done to support us.

What do you know of that they have done that makes them better friends than say Britain or Poland?

Neil · Joined: 02 Jan 2004 Location: Tokyo

Leslie Cheswyck · Joined: 31 May 2003 Location: University of Western Chile

Hey Mith,

Turkey is not a member of the Arab League. Care to guess why?

bigverne · Joined: 12 May 2004

Also, when is Greece going to be allowed to join the Organisation of Islamic countries?

It's discrimination, that's what it is!

mithridates · Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:18 am Post subject:

Ha. Nigeria. Try to study European history without including Constantinople. Or Constantine. Now try taking out Nigeria. You don't have European history without the former.
I'm not saying that's reason enough to join the EU, but any attempt to say that they have nothing to do with Europe historically or culturally is false.
The other reason why you're wrong on that point is that I know you wouldn't have a problem with Georgia joining the Union were it stronger economically. I have no problems with you being opposed to them being Muslim, but arguments regarding culture, geography and history don't wash.

Care to prove me wrong? Let's pretend that Armenia and Georgia, two of the first Christian nations in the world (4th century), have perfectly stable borders and a GDP per capita of $25000. Now tell me with as much zeal as you do with Turkey, that you don't want them in your EU because of the geography.

bigverne · Joined: 12 May 2004

Kuros · Joined: 27 Apr 2004

mithridates · Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:42 am Post subject:

That's fine, because your main opposition is the fact that they are Muslim. Your position can stand on its own without having to pretend that Turkey is a country way over there that never had anything to do with Europe.
As for Georgia and Armenia, you may not want them in but I'm pretty certain that I read a poll showing that Europeans weren't nearly as concerned about them as with Turkey in a theoretical adhesion. I also still have doubts that your opposition would be as fierce. It would be more along the lines of 'aw, aren't we big enough already?' as opposed to 'no matter what, we must not let them in!'

Most people, however, think of Europe as a whole as the countries named on this map (not Iraq because it's not written in):

Once again, I'm not saying that Turkey should get in. I'm not going to pretend I know enough about geopolitics as of yet.

mithridates · Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:48 am Post subject:

My namesake was so cool. And yes, I am aware that a Hellenistic empire spread all the way to India before and that simply using a shared history as an argument is quite weak.

Check this out, this is interesting:

Turkey, wide and low, certainly doesn't look all that appealing.

Out of curiosity though, what about military intelligence? Turkish is extremely related to all the central Asian languages - Turkmen, Azeri, Kyrgiz, Kazakh, and even Uigur in western China. Just about all the people in those countries have no problems with Turkish. Do you suppose that's one of the reasons for wanting Turkey in?

mithridates · Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:51 am Post subject:

All the coloured areas are places where Turkic languages exist. I think the total population is around 150 million but the geographic area is extremely wide.

funplanet · Joined: 20 Jun 2003 Location: The new Bucheon!

Border control is not erased completely but it is much easier getting around.....there are A LOT of border crossings which are not manned....u get into the EU....you can get anywhere you want

mithridates · Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:05 am Post subject:

Compare:

mithridates · Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:

I should mention that I'm a bit of an idealist, and *ideally* (though not realistically) I would like to see the EU enlarge to all the areas on this map:

IOW, up to the Caspian Sea and all the countries in between. I see the States losing influence and power bit by bit and I wouldn't like to see China become the major power in the world, not yet at least.

What is puzzling though is why Europeans are so pansy about their culture. Why should the assumption be that Turkey entering the EU would make more people become muslim? Why isn't it the other way around? Even atheists would have to admit that Christianity is preferable to them to Islam, and there's no way atheism would appeal to muslims in the first place. Weakened Christianity + agnosticism and atheism in the populace makes for a pretty weak appeal to a muslim immigrant.