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It's not Global Warming
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Logician: "Look, everything is not a coincidence.
I mean, if you shoot me with a gun and I die, that's
not a coincidence. You have a gun. You pull the trigger.
Bang. I'm dead."

Suter: Ah, but what if I actually happen to have a
gun on me right now?

Logician: Well, OK, I admit, that would be a...

BANG

Suter: Coincidence?


ROFL Laughing
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rapier



Joined: 16 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Quote:
Logician: "Look, everything is not a coincidence.
I mean, if you shoot me with a gun and I die, that's
not a coincidence. You have a gun. You pull the trigger.
Bang. I'm dead."

Suter: Ah, but what if I actually happen to have a
gun on me right now?

Logician: Well, OK, I admit, that would be a...

BANG

Suter: Coincidence?


ROFL Laughing


Heheh Wink

Its a bit like the conversation I had with Gord and Bulsajo on here recently:

GORD: The world would be better off if all the rainforests were cut down, because then the land would start to absorb carbon by growing grass.
ME: But rainforests store 600X more carbon than grassland, heres a scientific link to prove it.
GORD: I don't trust findings from Harvard. Anyway we can stop global warming by spraying the ocean with iron filings.
BULSAJO:Thats right. And i think wild birds have killed millions by spreading bird flu- I also heard storks steal babies and eat them.
ME: But here are links to a dozen scientists saying that there is no evidence for that, despite exhaustive research.
GORD: Thats probably from a junior school essay. I don't believe anything you say.
ME: I have a gun in my pocket.
GORD + BULSAJO: Not buying it. We want original peer reviewed documents signed by the president of the United states. Prove it!!
ME: Ok... BANG!!!!

(applause)

ME: well now folks, just believe what I tell you next time.
Laughing
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:34 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

To preface:

1)I understand that the Earth reverses polarity what we believe to be every 10,000 years or so. Hasn't happened in modern (er, recorded) history or anything we as a species had to muster up and tell us about the last time it happened, so no one is quite sure what to expect.

2) Since the early 90's, I've heard people offer up the notion that we're headed into an ice age. The unfortunate bit is that said people have used it to explain why humans aren't causing global warming. Geophysically speaking, HOW is the fact that we(on a 10,000 year scale) are moving towards an ice age ANY kind of proof that humans (on a 100-year scale) aren't causing global warming?

In other words, why is it not possible (or agenda-driven) that we are causing global warming in the face of an (apparently imminent) ice age?

3) CFC's. Nevermind global warming. What about skin cancer? We ARE damaging the atmosphere we need to survive.

That was my preface.

Now, Equus, before I criticize any of it, how much of that pile of manure you served up to begin this thread do you actually stand behind?
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Gord



Joined: 25 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rapier wrote:
Its a bit like the conversation I had with Gord and Bulsajo on here recently:

GORD: The world would be better off if all the rainforests were cut down, because then the land would start to absorb carbon by growing grass.
ME: But rainforests store 600X more carbon than grassland, heres a scientific link to prove it.
GORD: I don't trust findings from Harvard. Anyway we can stop global warming by spraying the ocean with iron filings.
BULSAJO:Thats right. And i think wild birds have killed millions by spreading bird flu- I also heard storks steal babies and eat them.
ME: But here are links to a dozen scientists saying that there is no evidence for that, despite exhaustive research.
GORD: Thats probably from a junior school essay. I don't believe anything you say.
ME: I have a gun in my pocket.
GORD + BULSAJO: Not buying it. We want original peer reviewed documents signed by the president of the United states. Prove it!!
ME: Ok... BANG!!!!


Why are you attempting to change history? In that thread, you didn't provide anything from Harvard and what little evidence of any value you offered didn't actually support what you claimed but rather backed up what I was saying.

Further still, you rallied behind a "scientific essay" that you claimed was a university sponsored research project but instead was a grade-school girl's essay. That pretty much was the highlight of the thread. I was actually impressed you managed to defeat your "rain forests are called rain forests because they create rain" line you believed as that one was pretty damn hard to top in terms of completely invalidating any belief anyone could have in believing you've done any research at all in what you want to believe is true.
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Bulsajo



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There goes Rapier, lying and creating straw men again, and the only person who wonders why he's got zero credibility here is- Rapier. What a tool.
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 12:20 pm    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

Meanwhile, have you read the link from the OP?
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EFLtrainer



Joined: 04 May 2005

PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the conspiracy theorist in everyone... Wink

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/TECH/space/10/08/russia.satellite.ap/index.html


Quote:
Satellite destroyed after Russian rocket launch

Saturday, October 8, 2005 Posted: 2131 GMT (0531 HKT)

MOSCOW, Russia (AP) -- A European Space Agency satellite that was to have collected data on polar ice broke up in flight after being launched on a converted ballistic missile, a Russian space agency official said Saturday.

Remnants of the satellite crashed into the ocean, Vyacheslav Davidenko, a spokesman for the Russian Federal Space Agency, told The Associated Press.

The loss of the CryoSat satellite is a major blow to the agency, which had hoped to conduct a three-year mapping of polar sea ice and provide more reliable data for the study of global warming.

The incident also damaged the reputation of the Russian space agency, which is aggressively trying to move into the commercial satellite launch business. German news reports said the satellite cost an estimated $210 million.

The problem appeared to be with the booster rocket that was supposed to lift the CryoSat unit into orbit, Davidenko said.

"The booster unit did not switch on and it resulted in the failure of the satellite to reach orbit," he said. "The remnants of the satellite have fallen into the northern Arctic Ocean."

"According to preliminary information, it was not a failure of the Space Forces, but the malfunction of the apparatus, which failed in bringing the satellite to orbit," Davidenko said.

Davidenko said the head of the Khrunichev production company, which manufactured the booster unit, apologized to ESA officials for the failure.
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rapier



Joined: 16 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder how Gord and Bulsajo explain the mass coincidence of uncountable symptoms of global warming worldwide: and their near perfect correlation to human population growth, carbon emissions, pollution, etc etc.

What do you think about 20% of the arctic melting in a few decades Gord, and the resulting massive release of stored carbon into the atmosphere? All entirely normal i guess, go back to sleep. Shocked
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Gord



Joined: 25 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rapier wrote:
I wonder how Gord and Bulsajo explain the mass coincidence of uncountable symptoms of global warming worldwide: and their near perfect correlation to human population growth, carbon emissions, pollution, etc etc.


You say that, but for most of the industrial revolution the temperature of the earth dropped or has remained static. Actual rises are a minority of the years and the earth's temperature is a whopping 0.6 degrees warmer than it was 200 years ago and it is still a degree cooler than it was 600 years ago. But every time this comes up, you just ignore it as it is very inconvenient to your claims of the earth being on the path to destruction.

That's what happens when your research is nothing but Google searches for paragraphs you hope will support you. Not only is your knowledge actually quite limited, but often those very paragraphs you've linked to are part of something that says things different. Though I don't think anyone expects actual scientific understanding from you after you demanded that I prove that water evaporates faster in warmer temperatures and that it isn't a constant independant of temperature.

Quote:
What do you think about 20% of the arctic melting in a few decades Gord, and the resulting massive release of stored carbon into the atmosphere? All entirely normal i guess, go back to sleep. Shocked


http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/science/20050921-9999-1m21mars.html

Possibly the same cause that is behind the melting of the ice caps on Mars which has been going on for years as well. The Sun has been radiating more energy now for a number of years which magically is timed with the raising temperatures of the Earth. And, magically again, the earth was cooler (and cooling down) during the last cycle of reduced activity.

I suspect I can probably find an an essay written by a twelve year old on the subject if you want as you've declared that such written projects are more valuable than anything written by people doing the actual research. Maybe I can dress it up and state "Researchers at Fairview Elementary School have done much research into..." to make it seem even more authorative.
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Bulsajo



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And Rapier you're a complete idiotbecause you don't know what my stance on global warming is. You know what they say about people who assume....
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EFLtrainer



Joined: 04 May 2005

PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
[quote="Gord"]You say that, but for most of the industrial revolution the temperature of the earth dropped or has remained static. Actual rises are a minority of the years and the earth's temperature is a whopping 0.6 degrees warmer than it was 200 years ago and it is still a degree cooler than it was 600 years ago. But every time this comes up, you just ignore it as it is very inconvenient to your claims of the earth being on the path to destruction.


doing a little picking and choosing yourself, no? Picking any given year in the past is irrelevant, which you know, or should. The long petterns over time are the only meaningful way to do comparison. For example, saying the sixties were a little cooler and the nineties a little warmer is meaning less. The stat I see from virtually every source is the Earth is 1 degree warmer, not 0.6.

Quote:
Possibly the same cause that is behind the melting of the ice caps on Mars which has been going on for years as well. The Sun has been radiating more energy now for a number of years which magically is timed with the raising temperatures of the Earth. And, magically again, the earth was cooler (and cooling down) during the last cycle of reduced activity.


I find it simplistic to say it's the sun. Failure to take account of all the factors involved may well damn you to failing to see and/or respond to reality.

The sun? Maybe. The core? Maybe. Pole shift? Maybe. Natural cycle? Definitely. Greenhouse gases? Definitely. All of the above? Most likely.
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Gord



Joined: 25 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EFLtrainer wrote:
doing a little picking and choosing yourself, no?


I provided charts that both covered the last thousand years, the last million, and the last 80 million. One would be hard pressed to claim that I've been picking and choosing.

Quote:
Picking any given year in the past is irrelevant, which you know, or should. The long petterns over time are the only meaningful way to do comparison. For example, saying the sixties were a little cooler and the nineties a little warmer is meaning less. The stat I see from virtually every source is the Earth is 1 degree warmer, not 0.6.


It's a degree warmer if we are talking about degrees F, but the world of science (and what I was quoting) is the world of Celcius.



Ta da! Seems the actual answer is 0.4C.

Quote:
Possibly the same cause that is behind the melting of the ice caps on Mars which has been going on for years as well. The Sun has been radiating more energy now for a number of years which magically is timed with the raising temperatures of the Earth. And, magically again, the earth was cooler (and cooling down) during the last cycle of reduced activity.


Quote:
I find it simplistic to say it's the sun. Failure to take account of all the factors involved may well damn you to failing to see and/or respond to reality.

The sun? Maybe. The core? Maybe. Pole shift? Maybe. Natural cycle? Definitely. Greenhouse gases? Definitely. All of the above? Most likely.


While simplistic, it is the only common event between the Earth and Mars which are both having matching heating patterns. Though in previous discussions I addressed that greenhouse gasses may have had a minor effect on the warming trend.

As well, I addressed that "greenhouses gasses" includes many things. Carbon dioxide which gets the most press is the weakest of the greenhouse gasses. Methane is a bazillion times more effective, for example, and is produced both from animals like cows and in vegetable decomposion in places of standing water like rice fields and everyone's favorite rain forests. Carbon dioxide is about as effective in keeping heat in as insulting one's house with crumpled newspaper. Sure, it is better than nothing but one is hard pressed to provide it in practical terms.
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EFLtrainer



Joined: 04 May 2005

PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gord wrote:
EFLtrainer wrote:
doing a little picking and choosing yourself, no?


I provided charts that both covered the last thousand years, the last million, and the last 80 million. One would be hard pressed to claim that I've been picking and choosing.

Quote:
Picking any given year in the past is irrelevant, which you know, or should. The long petterns over time are the only meaningful way to do comparison. For example, saying the sixties were a little cooler and the nineties a little warmer is meaning less. The stat I see from virtually every source is the Earth is 1 degree warmer, not 0.6.


And the source of the chart?
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Gord



Joined: 25 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://stephenschneider.stanford.edu/Publications/PDF_Papers/mcintyre_02.pdf
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rapier



Joined: 16 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gord the skeptic vs General scientific consensus and national governments:


Humans cause global warming, US admits
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2023835.stm

The strongest evidence yet that global warming has been triggered by human activity
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1489955,00.html

Pinatubo Volcano Research Boosts Case For Human-Caused Global Warming
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/02/020220075850.htm

The major source of global warming is carbon dioxide pollution from power plants, automobiles, and industry. Another source is global deforestation.
http://uspirg.org/uspirg.asp?id2=5235&id3=USPIRG&

Despite the consistent assertions of the United Nations-sponsored Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) that human activities have had a "discernible" influence on the global climate and that global warming is a serious problem that must be addressed immediately, "he said/she said" reporting has allowed a small group of global warming skeptics to have their views greatly amplified.
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1978

Only huge emissions cuts will curb climate change
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/earth/climate-change/dn6964

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Global warming is caused primarily by humans and nearly all climate scientists today agree with that viewpoint, the new head of the National Academy of Sciences -- a climate scientist himself -- said Wednesday.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/07/21/global.warming.ap/
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