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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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 Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
http://www.contentwatch.com/learn_center/article.php?id=107
Another study collected from 100 survivors at a rape crisis center discovered that 28% of respondents reported that their abuser used pornography and that for 12% of the women, pornography was imitated during the abusive incident (Bergen, Raquel Kennedy, 2000). |
Correlation does not equal causation.
Example:
Another study collected from 100 survivors at a rape crisis center in Seoul discovered that 99% of respondents reported that their abuser ate rice and that for 12% of the women, rice was eaten immediately before the abusive incident (Bert, Earnie, 2005).
or
Another study collected from 100 survivors at a rape crisis center in Seoul discovered that 99% of respondents reported that their abuser spoke Korean and that for 99% of the women, Korean was spoken during the abusive incident (Bert, Earnie, 2005).
How many times are you going to say "correlation equals causation"? |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Only 28% used pornography? |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
Alright, so this is my argument:
1. There is an indisputable connection between mind and body. |
Only their isn't. The very links you keep tossing up say that sexual predators use porn, but porn does not create sexual predators.
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| 2. The same stimuli can and will have different effects on different people |
Playing a game of touch football raises adrenalin much like watching violent scenes in movies and can result in people being more confrontational. Shall we ban touch football?
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| 3. Those that are, for lack of a better word, abnormal will be more likely to respond negatively, i.e. be influenced by, to stimuli as they are predisposed to, being abnormal. This abnormality may be psychological or physiological, or both. (Think schizophrnia as an example of physiological abnormalities that absolutely affect behavior.) |
Abnormal people might throw things off of buildings, so we should build everything underground.
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| 4. We are still learning exactly how the brain and body functions and we know precious little about the mind. |
True, but research into linking porn and violent crime in practically universal in pointing out that porn does not lead to violent sexual assaults in normal people.
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| 5. To assume that the measuring of an entire society is going to reveal something about the abnormal fringe in the issue under discussion is foolishly naive and bad science. |
Have you ever read a published study in your life? They often do that.
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| 6. That is, the positive effects of pornography, such as release or stimulating a healthy sexual relationship for a couple, don't tell us anything about the negative effects, but may well help to hide them in large studies as there are far more people in the "normal" set. (This is basic statistics.) |
If this claim were true, western civilization would be awash in sexual predators. Instead, study after study (including several you linked to in this thread) all say that there are no negative effects in most people much like playing touch football isn't going to turn people into violent killing machines.
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| 7. Thus, citing studies of the general population are meaningless. |
Are you honestly arguing that society should prohibit something because one person in a million might use it as a stimulus? Yet you live in an apartment above ground and I can safely assure you that more people have thrown things out of their windows or roofs than have done violent sexualy based crmes.
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| 8. There has been precious little work done on the deviant mind and pornography, but the anecdotal studies show a definite correlation and possible causation. |
Anecdotal studies have shown that people who perform sexually based crimes watch more porn, and this sometimes is misrepresented as porn leads to crime under the claim of "correlation equals causation".
Americans who commit violent crimes also hoard violent films and indulge in watching your beloved football. Shall we ban them too to prevent violent crimes?
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| 9. I also argue that in this case you are talking about a feedback loop. It is impossible to sort out the two, and always will be. For example, let's assume there is a causal relationship. So, someone starts having sex at some point. Completely independent of any exposure to porn, they start escalating their sexual experiences. Then they get into porn. They use the porn to stimulate in some form. They seek wider experience. They then seek more abnormal porn as they become desensitized to the milder porn. Then they escalate their sexual activities. |
What's your point? Like I mentioned before with violent movies and football where people who indulge in violence tend to hoard such productions.
Your entire line here is a slippery slope argument in which you can easily substitute "sex" for "violent", and then suddenly you'll be on the other side of the fence citing the very lines I do in how silly it is to claim such a thing.
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| How the hell do you sort out the causal agent? They are connected, people. This is basic physiology and basic psychology. Addiction research fits perfectly here. Know how addiction works? |
So now you are saying that people who have defects before the porn arrived are more likely to become sexual predators. Great. Another shift in your claimed opinion while offering no evidence.
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| 10. The studies have not been done that can prove or disprove a link between porno and behavior. Those studies must study ONLY those that are deviant (offenders) using the "normal" pool as a control for comparison. If you don't understand this you may need to brush up on basic scientific methodology, statistical analysis and basic psychology. |
But repeated studies have been done. THe largest of which was done by Reagan in the 80s which cost hundreds of million of dollars, and the final conclusion was the porn lead to fewer sex crimes than touch football leads to violent outburts.
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| 11. To address the utter stupidity in this thread: I do not object to people citing this or that study (though I think they are largely irrelevant.) I object to idiotic assertions that because I have not addressed a given instance or situation I am then assumed to support or connect or not connect that to the issue. This an absurd assumption to make. ("So, you don't like lemons? You must not like citrus." "So, you think child pornography is bad? You must think all porn is bad." "You didn't answer my question. Your opinion must be whatever I say it is, then." Stupid.) |
You are arguing that correlation does not equal causation when it is inconvenient, and it correlation does equal causation when it is convenient. And the only reason you are citing that correlation equals causation is because actual evidence does not exist and without it your claims that porn leads to sex crimes would be completely unsupported.
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| 12. Further, my pimary point in dealing with trolliwog was that you ARE responsible if you are buying material or in some way supporting the production of material that is, in fact, exploitative. Simple. Claiming ignorance is not acceptable, nor logically defensible. However, the attempt to be sure as much as possible must be commended. THAT said, how can you ever be? You can't in general, but I suppose you can be in specific cases if you happen to know something about the people involved. |
So watching porn is bad because some actress somewhere in some low-grade production from someone we've never heard of might have been forced to perform, yet football in which a majority of the players are on steroids just to keep their jobs because the NFL management refused to deal with the issue as a reduction in steroid use would reduce the quality of the game (smaller players) is cool.
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| 13. SO... if you are a buyer of porn, and are concerned about exploitation (if you don't care, then obviously this point and the preceding point will be irrlevant to you), you have to decide: Is my pleasure worth the possible exploitation of others? Your choice, but don't play innocent like you didn't know. |
Will you be watching a football game today? Is your pleasure with the definite exploitation of others? Your choice, but don't play innocent like you didn't know.
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| 14. To address the utter stupidity of claiming I have somehow "lost": how the hell do you lose in the stating of differing opinions??? We are not talking facts, people. We are talking theory and opinion. If you don't understand that, you truly are stupid. |
You presented your fact as opinion. You claimed your unsupported opinion was indeed fact, and then even the links you provided said that you are wrong.
You can change your posts now to "it is my opinion that porn leads to violence", but you will do so without any actual evidence.
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| 15. If you think this is a debate, thus can be won or lost, go back to high school and learn what a debate is and how one is run. |
Ironically, I was the champion of the debating team in parliamentary style debating because I was very good at showing how the other speakers were hypocrits. Correlation equals causation generally didn't come up, so I wasn't able to attack it very often.
But you are right, this is not a debate. This has been an exercise of me correcting you. A debate would suggest you brought something of value of the conversation, but instead you are just repeating the same flawed claims of A has B, so B must lead to A.
I hope none of those sexual predators had a TV, as then we would have to toss out our TVs. Or used a pencil as I like to use pencils and would have to be on the path to destruction.
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| Final note: this discussion cannot be won. You cannot deny a single one of the points made above. You can state your opinion on their relevance, importance and interpret what they mean. You CANNOT "win" an opinion. Particulary one based on limited, incomplete data. |
I can not deny a single point you made? Holy crap, I'm in trouble now as I countered everything. And since you watch football (as many violent persons do watch football), then this can only end in violence with me on the losing end. I am a horrible failure. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Amen Gord, I don't know how you have the patience to deal with fools like this. Well done. |
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jaderedux
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Lurking outside Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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Oh for chrissakes. This is pretty simple.
1. If you want to play hide the hobbit with anyone who hasn't haired over (old saying) there is something wrong with you. Seek help. If you want to watch same on the internet the same advice applies. The fact you think about it is the problem not the fact that some sicko puts it on web.
2. If you want to watch Jenna J. have sex with a crapload of men and pretend to have orgasms and enjoy watching the "money" shot. Well guess what you are probably normal. Porno has been around since men figured out how to draw.
3. Life is unfair. People who sell their daughters/sons into prostitution are not home waxing their curly moustaches and giggling manically. They just want to live and eat. GUESS WHAT IT SUCKS BUT IT IS TRUE. If you want to do something then go over there and do something.
4. Grown women at Hooters, strip bars, porno actresses and even some hookers (in a good deal of western countries) are adults. Granted not my cup of tea but if they want to shake it, show or sell it...IT IS THEIR BODY. WELCOME TO FEMINISM! It is my damn body and if I want to shake my groove thang and have some horny guy put a fiver or ten spot in my undies...IT IS MY DECISION....Ladies we can't have our cake and eat too.
5. Sex is wierd ...and if you look at porn and then want to rape someone the problem isn't the PORN! IT IS YOU!!!! We all want to be a victim. The lack of personal responsibility sucks. No one is forcing porn on anyone. Don't like porn DON'T LOOK. If you look at porn and rape the neighbor ..welcome to jail and hopefully for a long time.
I despise all this crap about oooh the internet made me do it....before it was rock music made me do it. Guess what that is b.s. Rapist don't look at porn and then slap their foreheads and decide ...what the heck am I doing I could be out raping someone! They were sick bent freaks to begin with.
Freaks that want to diddle little kids?? Same applies...they are sick bent twisted freaks...the internet didn't make them that way.
Sorry I know this is a rant with no links to articles because foolish woman that I am I believe in personal responsibility.
A man that sees a 15 year old girl all dressed up to kill and thinks "damn baby." Is he a freak? No probably not just doesn't know how old she is. If he acts on it after he finds out then he is just an ass and deserves to land his butt in jail just for being stupid.
And like it or not we are not even 100 years away from women being married off at 14 and 15 cuz we died about 35.
Porn is not a living thing. YOU HAVE TO ACCESS IT, BUY IT. No one is a VICTIM OF PORN. Maybe sometimes the women and men who get caught up in the production it might be, but lots of people are abused and mistreated. Porn is just one of the many industries that prey on the weak.
I assume your the O.P.s outrage extends to the kids working DDD jobs in developing countries. But that is boring...SEX SELLS!
Jade (still ranting in my head) |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| joe_doufu wrote: |
| Man, all these long-winded posts have got me in the mood for some good porn viewing. What's your favorite site everybody? |
I'll pass on the movie, thanks, but I think I may be getting conditioned to become aroused by the word "beep." |
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red dog
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| jaganath69 wrote: |
| I stopped because the ranters got into full moonbat mode, tinfoil hats and all. It was pretty obvious from the start that Susy was out on an emotive tirade and I called her on that, asking how she could support her claims. The cavalcade of lunatics on this board is yet another reason why I post mainly on the 'other' board these days. |
"Cavalcade of lunatics" ... I like the sound of that. Can I steal it? |
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joe_doufu
Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| red dog wrote: |
| "Cavalcade of lunatics" ... I like the sound of that. Can I steal it? |
For this board I think "confederacy of dunces" fits appropriately. We have a lot of Ignatius J Reillys. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:57 am Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| Read it again. I wasn't talking about the "normal" person. |
Then it's like saying we shoudl ban rope as one person in a hundred million might try to kill themselves with it.
Or ban buildings with a roof or window more than 2 meters above the ground as one person in a hundred million might try to kill themsleves by jumping off.
Or ban pencils as one person in a billion might want to poke their eyes out.
Your argument is that we should ban absolutely everything that might be used for a negative action because of what some people might end up doing with it. Shall we make a list of things in your life that you will have to destroy so that you are not a hypocrit? |
When did I say ban anything, troll? What have any of the ridiculous items on your list to do with exploitation, porn or prostitution? We are talking about individual awareness and personal choices.
No further with you, troll.
Last edited by EFLtrainer on Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:25 am Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
Alright, so this is my argument:
1. There is an indisputable connection between mind and body. |
Only their isn't. |
Are you kidding me? There is no mind-body connection? What we think in no way affects our physical self and vice-versa?
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| The very links you keep tossing up say that sexual predators use porn, but porn does not create sexual predators. |
Ah, now we're talking creation?? I'm sorry, I thought we were talking causation. Someone PM'd me and told me this is your typical M.O.: keeping changing the perameters so there's no way to have a rational dialogue. At least you are consistent. How's law school working out?
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| 2. The same stimuli can and will have different effects on different people |
Playing a game of touch football raises adrenalin much like watching violent scenes in movies and can result in people being more confrontational. Shall we ban touch football? |
Yeah, I typically think bringing touch football into a dicussion of porn and prostitution is germaine. Banning?? When in the name of god did I mention banning porn? Troll.
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| 4. We are still learning exactly how the brain and body functions and we know precious little about the mind. |
True, but research into linking porn and violent crime in practically universal in pointing out that porn does not lead to violent sexual assaults in normal people. |
Now I have to keep repeating this so you can keep ignoring I repeated it: it is not the "normal" person who will typically do the heinous thing. However, anyone is capable of anything, so nobody can be discounted.
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| 5. To assume that the measuring of an entire society is going to reveal something about the abnormal fringe in the issue under discussion is foolishly naive and bad science. |
Have you ever read a published study in your life? They often do that. |
It depends on the study and what it purports to study. And many a study is flawed. Deal with the fact that 1. we cannot actually study the issue directly for ethical reasons. Thus, we can only use tangential measures. All the more reason those studies must be rigorous and very, very specific. None so far really have been.
I know of no study that has exhasutively looked at the people who *do* act out sexually and come to a determination of *why*. However, there are a number if anecdotal studies that indicate a correlation that may be in part causal.
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| 6. That is, the positive effects of pornography, such as release or stimulating a healthy sexual relationship for a couple, don't tell us anything about the negative effects, but may well help to hide them in large studies as there are far more people in the "normal" set. (This is basic statistics.) |
If this claim were true, western civilization would be awash in sexual predators. Instead, study after study (including several you linked to in this thread) all say that there are no negative effects in most people much like playing touch football isn't going to turn people into violent killing machines. |
Please go find someone to teach you logic. Your response is inane.
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| 7. Thus, citing studies of the general population are meaningless. |
Are you honestly arguing that society should prohibit something because one person in a million might use it as a stimulus? Yet you live in an apartment above ground and I can safely assure you that more people have thrown things out of their windows or roofs than have done violent sexualy based crmes. |
Again, when did I say prohibit anything, troll? And would you please try to make a point that is actually germaine.
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| 8. There has been precious little work done on the deviant mind and pornography, but the anecdotal studies show a definite correlation and possible causation. |
Anecdotal studies have shown that people who perform sexually based crimes watch more porn, and this sometimes is misrepresented as porn leads to crime under the claim of "correlation equals causation". |
Well, finally. You actually made some sense.
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| Americans who commit violent crimes also hoard violent films and indulge in watching your beloved football. Shall we ban them too to prevent violent crimes? |
In fact, the violence seems to be particularly integral. Good on ya, your brain's not fully fried.
Again with the banning?? 
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| 9. I also argue that in this case you are talking about a feedback loop. It is impossible to sort out the two, and always will be. For example, let's assume there is a causal relationship. So, someone starts having sex at some point. Completely independent of any exposure to porn, they start escalating their sexual experiences. Then they get into porn. They use the porn to stimulate in some form. They seek wider experience. They then seek more abnormal porn as they become desensitized to the milder porn. Then they escalate their sexual activities. |
What's your point? |
Now THAT says it all.
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| How the hell do you sort out the causal agent? They are connected, people. This is basic physiology and basic psychology. Addiction research fits perfectly here. Know how addiction works? |
So now you are saying that people who have defects before the porn arrived are more likely to become sexual predators. Great. Another shift in your claimed opinion while offering no evidence. |
what shift? The shift you THINK you perceive is one you created by making assumptions then attributing them to me. Nothing has shifted. However, I do avoid pointing out the obvious. I didn't think I needed to explain that those predisposed are more vulnerable to stimuli. thought you studied law? Didn't you have to go to college first? Didn't you have basic psych, troll?
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| 10. The studies have not been done that can prove or disprove a link between porno and behavior. Those studies must study ONLY those that are deviant (offenders) using the "normal" pool as a control for comparison. If you don't understand this you may need to brush up on basic scientific methodology, statistical analysis and basic psychology. |
But repeated studies have been done. THe largest of which was done by Reagan in the 80s which cost hundreds of million of dollars, and the final conclusion was the porn lead to fewer sex crimes than touch football leads to violent outburts. |
And? So, by extension, porn never has any causal rlationship with crime?
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| 11. To address the utter stupidity in this thread: I do not object to people citing this or that study (though I think they are largely irrelevant.) I object to idiotic assertions that because I have not addressed a given instance or situation I am then assumed to support or connect or not connect that to the issue. This an absurd assumption to make. ("So, you don't like lemons? You must not like citrus." "So, you think child pornography is bad? You must think all porn is bad." "You didn't answer my question. Your opinion must be whatever I say it is, then." Stupid.) |
You are arguing that correlation does not equal causation when it is inconvenient, and it correlation does equal causation when it is convenient. |
Huh? Correlation never equals causation in and of itself. And I never said any different, troll. It is, however, evidence that a cause MAY exist, troll.
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| 12. Further, my pimary point in dealing with trolliwog was that you ARE responsible if you are buying material or in some way supporting the production of material that is, in fact, exploitative. Simple. Claiming ignorance is not acceptable, nor logically defensible. However, the attempt to be sure as much as possible must be commended. THAT said, how can you ever be? You can't in general, but I suppose you can be in specific cases if you happen to know something about the people involved. |
So watching porn is bad because some actress somewhere in some low-grade production from someone we've never heard of might have been forced to perform, |
Whe did I say all porn is bad? My point all along, which your trollish mind cannot accept, is that IF you watch porn AND claim to be morally or ethically opposed to exploitation THEN you have a responsibility to EITHER accept the consequences of your actions OR be very careful about what you watch/look at/buy.
Now, this is the umpteenth time I've said this, but of course, being a troll, that is irrelevant to you.
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| 13. SO... if you are a buyer of porn, and are concerned about exploitation (if you don't care, then obviously this point and the preceding point will be irrlevant to you), you have to decide: Is my pleasure worth the possible exploitation of others? Your choice, but don't play innocent like you didn't know. |
Will you be watching a football game today? Is your pleasure with the definite exploitation of others? Your choice, but don't play innocent like you didn't know. |
Yeah, football and kiddie porn: those are equal sins in the eyes of the world. I do not consider football to be exploitative. These are very, very well-paid people who know the risks of their actions. There is no coercion, there is no rape, there is no forced labor. You are trying to skew a discussion of violence with one of sexual predation, which is ridiculous.
I asked you a question you never answered: what is the key elment in determining whether any given behavior is being exploited or not?
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| 14. To address the utter stupidity of claiming I have somehow "lost": how the hell do you lose in the stating of differing opinions??? We are not talking facts, people. We are talking theory and opinion. If you don't understand that, you truly are stupid. |
You presented your fact as opinion. You claimed your unsupported opinion was indeed fact, and then even the links you provided said that you are wrong. |
If you think the links I provided prove I am wrong, you need to learn to read again because your comprehension is extremely poor. For one, none of the links I provided PROVE anything.
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| You can change your posts now to "it is my opinion that porn leads to violence", but you will do so without any actual evidence. |
And you have exactly ZERO PROOF it doesn't. It is, as I have also said before, but you blithely and willfully ignore it, ALL THEORY. There is no FACT here. There is no FINAL answer yet. Get it? So, yes, it is my OPINION that porn does affect behavior. It is your OPINION that it does not. Nothing more, trollboy.
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| 15. If you think this is a debate, thus can be won or lost, go back to high school and learn what a debate is and how one is run. |
Ironically, I was the champion of the debating team in parliamentary style debating because I was very good at showing how the other speakers were hypocrits. Correlation equals causation generally didn't come up, so I wasn't able to attack it very often. |
Then you had very, very poor competition.
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| But you are right, this is not a debate. This has been an exercise of me correcting you. |
Self-delusion is a terrible thing. What you have demonstrated is that you know nothing of psychology, are unwilling and unable to follow a logical thread and think that an assumption is a fact.
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| Final note: this discussion cannot be won. You cannot deny a single one of the points made above. You can state your opinion on their relevance, importance and interpret what they mean. You CANNOT "win" an opinion. Particulary one based on limited, incomplete data. |
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| I can not deny a single point you made? Holy crap, I'm in trouble now as I countered everything. |
You have countered nothing, but do carry on, troll.
Last edited by EFLtrainer on Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:30 am Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
http://www.asc.upenn.edu/usr/chunter/porn_effects.html#conclusion
Conclusion
This paper has provided an overview of the limited effects - powerful effects debate about pornography. From this presentation, it should be clear that just like debates about television violence or the effect of the mass media in general, there are no clear answers. As such, it would seem that the best conclusion one can reach about the effect of pornography is that it "does not serve as a necessary and sufficient cause of audience effects, but rather functions among and through a nexus of mediating factors and influences (Klapper, 1960)." Thus bringing us full circle, back to the limited effects conclusion that sparked pornography research in the first place. |
You didn't even read the article. It says that watching porn is no more desensitizing that watching TV or reading books and that there is no evidence that regular people when exposed to pornography will become deviant predators (and specifically cited Japan as having much violent pornography available yet a very low sex crime rate).
Brilliant move, Sparky. Yet another link you've provided which actually counters your stated opinion and pretty much says the opposite of what you thought it said. |
As such, it would seem that the best conclusion one can reach about the effect of pornography is that it "does not serve as a necessary and sufficient cause of audience effects, but rather functions among and through a nexus of mediating factors and influences (Klapper, 1960)."
Learn to read. |
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