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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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 Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| in_seoul_2003 wrote: |
| But if your you too concerned with detracting from pedophelia in the Catholic church comitted by certain authority figures (and isn't the Vatican an authority and haven't they colluded with a certain silencing of reports?), |
-Not at all, I agree catholicism is riven with paedophilia and historic guilt. Both religions make the mistake of uniting church and state.
I'd be quite happy for both islam and catholicism to die a quick death. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:28 am Post subject: |
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| Both religions make the mistake of uniting church and state. |
In the past, Catholicism did, yet there is no movement today, within the Church for a return to papal rule. Are there any movements, in any Catholic countries, for democratic rule to be overturned and replaced with the rule of the Church? No.
The opposite is true in the Islamic world. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Both religions make the mistake of uniting church and state. |
In the past, Catholicism did, yet there is no movement today, within the Church for a return to papal rule. Are there any movements, in any Catholic countries, for democratic rule to be overturned and replaced with the rule of the Church? No.
The opposite is true in the Islamic world. |
BigVerne: have you ever lived in a conservative Latin American country, like Chile?
Hint: the Catholic Church still dominates politics and education there, the Church does not allow condom advertisements on its television channel -- one of the three main television channels in Chile -- indeed, it did not allow Pres. Frei to distribute condoms in the high schools in 1997, when he attempted it, children from parents who were not married had the word "illegitimate" stamped on their birth certificate (forever), until only several years ago, abortion is still and will forever be illegal there, and divorce was not legal until 2005, that is, this year.
In short, in Chile, at least, the Church does not need to directly seize the reigns of govt when most if not all of the politicians are dependent on its backing, in one way or another.
If we are going to attack or undermine organized religions, and I believe we should because they all pretty much suck, then let's not leave out Catholicism, which can be just as controlling, unforgiving, unyeilding, and, in some circles, just as antisemitic as Islam. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
If we are going to attack or undermine organized religions, and I believe we should because they all pretty much suck, then let's not leave out Catholicism, which can be just as controlling, unforgiving, unyeilding, and, in some circles, just as antisemitic as Islam. |
I agree- after spending 4 years in Ireland i noted how catholicism dominates a lot of government policy there. Illegal abortions and all the rest.
If i had the time i'd love to do a proper study of the history of the Roman catholic church and the Vatican. I get the impression its a pretty sordid one. Politicians, gangsters, war criminals and priests rolled into one. |
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Yaya
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| If we are going to attack or undermine organized religions, and I believe we should because they all pretty much suck, then let's not leave out Catholicism, which can be just as controlling, unforgiving, unyeilding, and, in some circles, just as antisemitic as Islam. |
If you substituted the words 'can be' with 'used to be' you would be nearer the mark.
If you can produce any evidence of catholic priests calling Jews, 'monkeys and pigs' for example, advocating stoning for adulterous women, issuing death threats to errant authors and condoning terrorism you might be nearer the mark. Muslim clerics have done, and continue to do all of the above and more.
I know it is easy to groups all religions together, and say that they are equally bad, or equally tolerant, but it is simply not true. I am no fan of organised religion, and have little time for Catholicism, but to say it can be just as controlling or unforgiving as Islam, is absurd. When was the last time a woman was stoned to death in a Catholic country for adultery?
Moreover, in countries like Chile the Church may have a strong influence, but it is nothing like in Islamic states where laws are laid down in strict compatibility with Islamic Law. |
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dulouz
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:53 am Post subject: |
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I'm a loyal Catholic and I'm not changing. My family goes to church, they are pretty mild. Outrageous Catholicism is pretty hard to find and you have to go to a select few places to it. The Catholic church is now largely old women. You need to find a new target.
The church encourages the poor to have too many children. the poor to moderate the church but in lieu of large Muslim birth rates, it might not be a bad thing. The church doesn't foster ecomonic growth, they should. Good Catholics temper the church, we always do. Its part of being a good congregation member. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
If we are going to attack or undermine organized religions, and I believe we should because they all pretty much suck, then let's not leave out Catholicism, which can be just as controlling, unforgiving, unyeilding, and, in some circles, just as antisemitic as Islam. |
I agree- after spending 4 years in Ireland i noted how catholicism dominates a lot of government policy there. Illegal abortions and all the rest.
If i had the time i'd love to do a proper study of the history of the Roman catholic church and the Vatican. I get the impression its a pretty sordid one. Politicians, gangsters, war criminals and priests rolled into one. |
Actually one way to get a really good background on something is to translate English Wikipedia articles for another language. I forget if you know Afrikaans and / or Zulu, but translating the articles on each pope gets you to make sure you understand all of the content and that you don't just skim over anything. At the same time you're helping their Wikipedia grow too. |
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in_seoul_2003
Joined: 24 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:32 am Post subject: |
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...
Last edited by in_seoul_2003 on Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:31 am; edited 2 times in total |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, jewish world review. Totally scholarly and 100% legit. This is a real gem:
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G-d turned them into monkeys and pigs. The fact that this kind of hatred is so deeply rooted in core Islamic text makes it all the more difficult to eradicate. |
Citation? Nowhere to be found, big surprise.
I suggest you let Big Verne make your case, he's much better at it.  |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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If more Korean muslims means more Middle East Restaurants in Korea then I am all for it.
I knew this cool Syrian guy (he was also a muslim) back home he ran a very good mideast restaurant. He was very pro US , didn't care about Israel / Palestine if anything he liked the Israeli side more.
He told me that Haffaz Assad was the biggest SOB in the history of the world , that being in the Syrian army was terrible , and that his only dream back then was to have a pair of US blue jeans. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:40 am Post subject: |
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"If you can produce any evidence of catholic priests calling Jews, 'monkeys and pigs'..."
Since we are on the topic of Jews and Muslims, I can cite quite a few rabbis who have called Muslims far worse. |
We were talking about Catholicism but go on. Are they as mainstream as the President of the most prestigious Islamic University in the world?
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"... for example, advocating stoning for adulterous women..."
During the inquisition weren't some babies and women with the devil in them burned? |
Any examples in recent history? There are plenty in the Islamic world.
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"... issuing death threats to errant authors..."
Spanish priests were threatened with their lives for translating from Latin to Castillian. |
Again, in the present day? Do you have any present day equivalents of Salman Rushdie, or Theo Van Gogh?
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"... and condoning terrorism..."
How are we defining terrorism here? |
Walking into a cafe full of families and blowing yourself up. Condoning such action is then calling the people who commit such vile acts 'martyrs'.
I doubt anyone would argue that Christianity does not have a bloody and intolerant past. However, the point I am making is that today, one religion stands head and shoulders above the rest in regard to intolerance, extremism and violence. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:02 am Post subject: |
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I don't consider catholicism to be Christianity.
Paedophilia plays a large part in its make-up. I read somewhere that the RC church has paid over a billion US$ in out of court settlements to victims of its priests in America. I think its also fair to say a large number of Nazis were Roman catholics. There are CIA documents showing vast amounts of Nazi gold looted from jews and Serbs was transferred to the Vatican when germany capitulated. And that The vatican played a role in protecting nazi war criminals subsequently.
It goes on...never mind even mentioning that the basic precepts of roman catholicism are different to Christianity- even, against it. The Pope claims to be God. Worship of the Virgin mary instead of jesus. this is all blasphemy to real christianity. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| The Pope claims to be God. |
Umm, source?
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| Worship of the Virgin mary instead of jesus |
So, eating what Catholics believe to be the body of Christ every week doesn't count as worshipping Jesus? |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:54 am Post subject: |
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[quote="On the other hand"]
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| The Pope claims to be God. |
Umm, source? |
Every time a Catholic calls the pope "holy father", they are committing blashphemy. It is a title reserved for God. Mentioned only once in the bible, when Jesus prayed to God.
The Los Angeles Times of December 12, 1984, quoted John Paul II as saying: "Don't go to God for forgiveness of sins: come to me." This is blasphemy. The Pope is telling the world not only that he is God, but that he is above God.
http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=apology
More pope quotes:
Pope Innocent III:"He (the pope)judges all and is judged by no one."
Pope Boniface VIII:"We declare,assert,define and pronounce:To be subject to the Roman pontiff is to every human creature altogether necessary for salvation."
Pope LeoXIII:"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty."
http://www.christianchatforum.com/cgi-bin/bbs/index.pl/noframes/read/1189
Read this account from 1560: interesting.
Florentine, named Iohannes a Casa, Deane of the Popes Chamber, & chiefe Legate to the Venetians: who well declaring the fruit of that fylthy See, so farre forgat both honesty and nature, that hee shamed not onely to play the filthie Sodomite himselfe, & to boast openly of the same: but also tooke vpon hym most impudently in Italian metre, to al mens eares, to set forth the prayse & commendation of that beastly iniquity, saying that he himselfe neuer vsed other: & this booke was prynted at Venice, by one Troianus Nauus: & yet the Pope could suffer this so great iniquity and shameles beastlines, euen vnder his nose in his own chāber, which could not abide the true doctrine of Christ in Christian bookes.
http://www.hrionline.ac.uk/foxe/single/book11/11_1583_1560.html
| Quote: |
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| Worship of the Virgin mary instead of jesus |
So, eating what Catholics believe to be the body of Christ every week doesn't count as worshipping Jesus? |
I'll have to get back to you on that...
But the central mistake is clear. Christianity needs no human intermediary between men and god, only prayer. God has no representatitives on earth, but Jesus- when he appeared in human form.
Jesus' mother was human. Not to be worshipped. Similarly, christianity abhors images, idols, objects etc. the catholic church is full of material objects which are invested with holy status: beads, rosary, all sorts of "superatural" bleeding statues and crying madonnas etc that become worshipped. |
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