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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Leslie Cheswyck wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| rapier wrote: |
Oh, personal insults now? The last desperate last resort already?
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i'll end this with one word: hypocrite. |
Well, Buch, who or what are we going to believe? The words of the prophet Mohammed himself as written in the Koran and the hadiths, or the words of some kid who backpacked through the Middle East? |
Hold on a moment, all BB has said is that he is not against Islam. He has not even declared any support for it. Then Rapier went ahead to characterize Islam in its most despicable (and only its most despicable) incarnations, and then claim that BB was not against that, so that BB was some kind of apologist for Islamic atrocities.
It's completely out of line. I don't understand how BB gets so much crap on this board with his moderate position of, 'Yeah, some of Islam is indefensible, but some of it is pretty interesting.' |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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except I haven't said anything about the religion on this thread now have I? Good luck finding much where I've disputed certain aspects of Islam itself or said Rapier (or anyone for that one) was wrong about various tenets of Islam.
But yes, I'd wager I know a bit more about your average 21st century muslim than a dude who lived centuries ago. Now if I'm wrong, and he does know more than me, then damn, Islam must be legit.  |
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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
So...you are not against the stoning to death of women who have sex outside of marriage. |
"If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her, then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife - Deut 22
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| You are not against the public flogging of drinkers and gamblers. (had a beer lately?) |
What about doing things on the Sabbath?
While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day ... And The Lord said to Moses, "The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." - Num 15
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| You are not against husbands being allowed to hit their wives. |
It's so much better to allow them to sell their daughters as sex slaves, eh?
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. - Ex 21
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| You are not against state-sanctioned torture: thieves having their hands or feet cut off. |
Yes, that's nothing like strict enough. Burn them, AND stone them!
And Achan answered Joshua, "Of a truth I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and this is what I did: when I saw among the spoil a beautiful mantle from Shinar, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a bar of gold weighing fifty shekels, then I coveted them, and took them; and behold, they are hidden in the earth inside my tent, with the silver underneath." So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran to the tent; and behold, it was hidden in his tent with the silver underneath. And they took them out of the tent and brought them to Joshua and all the people of Israel; and they laid them down before the LORD. And Joshua and all Israel with him took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver and the mantle and the bar of gold, and his sons and daughters, and his oxen and asses and sheep, and his tent, and all that he had; and they brought them up to the Valley of Achor. And Joshua said, "Why did you bring trouble on us? The LORD brings trouble on you today." And all Israel stoned him with stones; they burned them with fire, and stoned them with stones. - Josh 7
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| As you are not against it...you condone the killing of anyone having sex outside marriage. You thinks its ok that all homosexuals must be executed. |
See above about the sex outside marriage bit. As for homosexuals:
"If a man lies with a male as a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them." - Lev 20.
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| You are not against the killing of anyone who disagrees with islam or criticizes Islam. |
"If there is found among you, within any of your towns which the LORD your God gives you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the LORD your God, in transgressing his covenant, and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, and it is told you and you hear of it; then you shall inquire diligently, and if it is true and certain that such an abominable thing has been done in Israel, then you shall bring forth to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones. - Deut 17
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| You are not against the public murder of anyone who chooses to leave Islam, or change their faith. The killing of apostates, as ordered by the Quran and hadith passages. As are all of the above, either exemplified by muhammad himself, ordered in the quran, or hadiths. |
See above.
Wow, I never knew Bible study could be so rewarding! |
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Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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Well said H: there's a thread I started over on Koreabridge along very similar lines. The thread is called "Literalism" and it's in the Spirits in the Material World forum - sorry, no direct links are possible ... but start here (if you're interested) ....
http://www.koreabridge.com/forums/index.htm |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:57 am Post subject: |
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Hypnotist - How many Christian countries actually carry out any of those brutalities as laid down in the Bible? How many muslim countries do, and in how many muslim countries are there powerful political movements to reinstate those punishments under Sharia Law?
That should tell you something of the differences between those religions, and why one is far more dangerous than the other. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| Again Bigverne sails close to the wind with his courting of the forces of British Fascism. |
Enoch Powell said that immigration would lead to ethnic conflict and large parts of our cities becoming non white. Is it 'courting facism' to state that he was correct on both counts?
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| Given your hasty backdown concerning the BNP |
I stand by everything I said. You misintepreted what I said and labelled me a 'white supremacist', thus demonstrating your limited debating skills and reasoning.
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| Your moral equivalence between those you label 'legitimate politicians' and Islamic terrorists |
The BNP are a legitimate political party. That's not an opionion, but a fact. I have not mentioned Islamic terrorists in relation to the BNP, but so called 'moderates' who have an undue influence on government policy. Once again you prove adept at putting words in my mouth.
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| That's not the Islam that I have seen/experienced in many different parts of the world. |
Says the man with the picture of the author sentenced to death and hated with a passion by most muslims. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:12 am Post subject: |
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Hypnotist:!
That is all from the old testament. The old law of the covenant between God and Israel.
Although parts of it are still valued by the Jews, it is no longer aplicable to Christians. It is cancelled out by the new testament.
This is a new law entirely....that follows the sacrifice of Christ. We as christians are no longer under judgement for sin, as Christ has already paid the penalty for it. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
Hypnotist - How many Christian countries actually carry out any of those brutalities as laid down in the Bible? How many muslim countries do, and in how many muslim countries are there powerful political movements to reinstate those punishments under Sharia Law?
That should tell you something of the differences between those religions, and why one is far more dangerous than the other. |
this is the difference between the two.
On this thread you have people who want to impress with their worldly Bohemian knowledge of islam. Yet they do not fully understand Christianity, the heritage of Free western nations.
Under old testament law..people looked forward to the messiah. Thus, they had to pay for their sins themselves by all manner of punishments- stoning, death, etc- similar to islam.
New testament law is what we are under now. The messiah, Jesus, has already paid the penalty for our sin and wrongdoing. thus, we are no longer subject to Sharia- style punishment. A simple prayer sincerely asking forgiveness by the right of Christs sacrifice is enough.
Islam however still believes people have to pay the price. -...thus,..flagellation, amputation, flogging, hanging, stoning, and all manner of inhuman barbaric punishments are meted out to transgressors..with people, not God, deciding who gets punished and how. Its a rule of fear. the uniting of islam with the government of such countries creates a hellish tyranny under which all are slaves...
The following link pictures some islamic punishments: be warned before you click on it,- gruesome.
http://www.terrorists-suck.org/why_suck/ |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| Work and real life got in the way of Dave's (although I won't be part of the immigration stats when I return, unlike most of you guys, I will be off soon). But this was an interesting conversation I was having with bigverne. |
It was indeed, and your contribution is appreciated.
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| But why the hell would they want to integrate into a closed-minded society like the one seemingly favoured by you? I consider the future well-being of my country to be far more important than protecting your feelings of superiority. |
What are you talking about? How is my society closed-minded? I have merely stated that immigration is too high, that it is unsustainable, and that a more unified identity over the divisive government policy of multiculturalism should be adopted. That has nothing to do with feelings of superiority.
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| The stance you take discourages integration. Even if we stopped taking new immigrants tomorrow, integration of the existing community would continue to be a challenge. |
It would continue to be a challenge, and it becomes even harder if you have such large numbers of immigrants arriving.
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| He went somewhat further than that (despite what Melanie Phillips chose to tell you): |
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| Judge Higgins said Mr Scot had, throughout the seminar, made fun of Muslim beliefs and conduct. "It was done, not in the context of a serious discussion of Muslims' religious beliefs," he said. "It was presented in a way which is essentially hostile, demeaning and derogatory of all Muslim people ..." |
Making fun of 'beliefs and conduct'? Should that really be illegal? I think the burkha is a ridiculous item of clothing. If I make fun of it, should I be imprisoned? I would like to know exactly what these men said, as the Judge's opinion on what is 'demeaning or hostile' may be different from mine.
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| Judge Higgins said that during the seminar Mr Scot had claimed the Koran promoted violence, killing and looting and that Muslims were liars and demons. |
The Koran does promote violence, killing and looting. Those are undeniable facts. Should it be illegal to speak the truth about unwholesome philosophies? If they did indeed say that muslims were 'liars and demons' then that could count as incitement, but again, I would like to see the exact words they used.
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| Mr Scot also had said Muslims had a plan to overrun Western democracy by violence and terrorism and wanted to turn Australia into an Islamic nation. |
If he put the word 'some' before muslim he would have been correct. Moreover, many 'moderate' groups do seek to overturn liberal democracy. Recent opinion polls in the UK showed that a majority of muslims wanted Western democracy overthrown, albeit by peaceful means. Should it be a punishable offence to object to this?
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| Nevertheless, whilst I agree with you that people should be free to say whatever they like about a philosophy, I don't agree that the same should apply to what one can say about people holding that philosophy. The distinction is an important one. |
Going by our PC courts, I have grave concers over how this will be interpreted, and I would not be surprised if someone was charged with incitement if they stated that 'Islam promotes violence'.
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| Better access to it rather than free, I'd argue |
No, education and healthcare are free for immigrants, and it is one of the major reasons they come. They cannot achieve such a high standard of living in their own countries.
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| - as I've said before, the majority want to work (and pay for it through their taxes). |
You really think the taxes paid by unskilled workers from places like Somalia cover the cost of their housing, healthcare and the cost of their (usually many) kids education?
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| Encouraging an underclass of illegal immigrants to ensure our essential services are undertaken (as already happens in California, for example) is not in our interests or those of immigrants. |
So, why do we continue to do it then? Why do we not deport the hundreds of thousands whose asylum applications have failed and who have no right to stay in the country?
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| He was specifically talking about immigration from Commonwealth countries. And come on. One set of bombings is not bloody racial conflict. Were you against Irish immigration to the UK during the Troubles? |
Irish immigration never posed any of the problems that muslim immigration does. Irish immigrants integrated very quickly, and did not seek special treatment or form organisations with the aim of changing the nature of the British state.
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| He was off on the 1/10th, but his numbers weren't bad. And yet what he predicted has singularly failed to happen. The Thames hardly looked like the Tiber. |
How many race riots have to erupt and how many bombs have to go off before you admit that he might have a point?
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| I'll give him that, but so what? It has always been thus, to some extent. |
No, it hasn't. Even in London, prior to mass immigration, immigrants made up a very small percentage of the population and were concentrated in certain districts. That is a huge difference to entire sections of the city, and even entire towns becoming dominated by immigrants and their descendants. I find it offensive when multiculturalists attempt to rewrite history and paint London as if it was always some kind of multicultural melting pot. When such falsehoods are taken to describe the 'multicultural' nature of pre-war Britian, they become Orwellian in their absurdity.
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| Do you actually believe that there can be no black Englishmen, or was this just clumsy? |
Of course, there are many black Englishmen. I went to school with a few of them. But this is not to say that I am happy that some sections of London now have more in common with Bangladesh than England. Such communities are now self sustaining, making integration into the mainstream far less likely.
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| And why are foreign, non-white areas worse than foreign, white areas? |
For some obvious reasons. Foreign, White areas do not stay that way for long, as most White people are European or English speaking, so their integration is quick and relatively easy. Moreover, they experience little racism from the native population, and they themselves have few problems when intermarrying with the locals. Non-white foreign areas, particularly those that are muslim, are less likely to integrate and are far more likely to become ethnic ghettoes, separate from the mainstream.
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| This trend is certainly true in London, but how about in other cities? I've not seen any evidence either way, to be honest. But in any case, it tends to be affluent people who move to the suburbs - that doesn't exclude non-white people. |
I haven't seen the evidence for other cities either, but I have little reason to believe it would be any different.
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| I see this as a class issue, not a race issue. Then again, I am a socialist. |
If it was a class issue then surely you would see rich Asians moving into White middle class areas and vice versa, but that is not the case. Despite all the rhetoric, people do prefer their 'own kind' even if they profess to be liberal and tolerant. So, was the recent race riot in Birmingham a 'class' issue or a racial conflict?
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| There are valid concerns about the muslim community, but I don't believe the nature of Islam is one of them. |
Then, you are very naive.
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| But if you import the top of society from them, you're imposing poverty on them. That's my point. If we need skilled workers from abroad - which we do - we should be training them ourselves. |
Then, why not just train the legions of unemployed people here already. It makes little sense to import unskilled immigrants (many of whom can't speak English) when we have plenty of our own unskilled poor whites and blacks here. If you are merely talking about training up poor people, then there is no reason to bring them in from outside the country. Moreover, on top of the cost of training them, you would have the problems of integration that would not be a concern when training the indigeneous unemployed.
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| The cost of housing, the cost of transport and other hidden costs mean it's basically impossible to work in London with any kind of sustainability in a low-end service job wage - unless there's a better earner in the household. |
But one of the reasons such jobs pay badly is because of the surplus of immigrant labour, which actively suppresses wages.
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| It's not absurd, and moreover it's sustainable. Invest in them now and have them contributing to the tax system in a few years - why does that make no sense? |
It makes no sense because as I've already outlined we have plenty of unskilled, unemployed workers already. You are suggesting that we import more, and that we spend vast amounts of money to train them up. Added to that is the problems of integration, which would not exist with many British born unemployed.
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| Taking the most skilled workers from abroad is not sustainable |
I agree, the emphasis should be on training British unemployed and improving the education system. However, we can import workers from developed countries like the USA and Australia.
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| Most immigrants probably don't have the faintest clue about our immigration system or education system (though perhaps the traffickers do). They do know about the UK and have some idea of what life is like - and the fact it's English-speaking probably helps a lot, too. |
Thanks to the internet, phones and TV, they know all about the welfare states of the West, and it is naive to think otherwise. Most people know someone, a friend, a relative, who has gone to the West, and so the stories of the benefits on offer filter back.
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| How will these backward countries ever move forward if we take all their educated people? |
I agree with you, but we shouldn't be taking their unskilled workers either for reasons I have outlined already.
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| It's true that it's a gross generalisation, but nevertheless it's true. |
It is a gross generalisation and as a means for informing us about immigration policy it is worthless. It tells us nothing of what type of immigration is beneficial and which is not. Moreover, even when taken as a whole, immigration actually has a negligible effect on GDP per capita, although it does increase GDP.
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| The population density of the UK isn't that high, as I've said before. High, yes, but hardly in the top league. |
Now, you're just being silly. I was referring to the SE England, which attracts the bulk of immigrants and which is second only to the Netherland in terms of population density in Europe. Are you not worried about government population projections that would see our population increase by 5 million by 2031?
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| Unemployment is at a historical low, but I take your point - that said, why should it be either/or? And once again - if they are a drain on the state, why not educate them so they aren't? In truth it would probably be cheaper than expelling them. |
Because it costs money that should be spent on educating and training our British workforce before the needs of immigrants. Moreover, if deportation was made easier, and not subject to endless appeals it would be far cheaper than the cost of educating such people. I also doubt you would be able to persuade anyone of the logic of importing unskilled immigrants and then giving up their tax to pay for such measures. Your policies are informed by a romantic idealism, and do not take into account past failures in immigration policy. Namely, that importing poor, unskilled immigrants, from culturally different third world countries does not work. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:28 am Post subject: |
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From the continent, more reports of the delights that muslim immigration has brought:-
Riots Plague Paris Suburbs for Sixth Night
Unrest spread across troubled suburbs around Paris in a sixth night of violence Tuesday as police clashed with angry youths and scores of vehicles were torched in at least nine towns, local officials said.
The area, home mainly to families of immigrant origin, often from Muslim North Africa, is marked by soaring unemployment and delinquency. Anger and despair thrive in the tall cinder-block towers and long "bars" that typically make up housing projects in France.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174227,00.html
Cartoons have Muslims threatening newspaper
By The Copenhagen Post
Daily newspaper Jyllands-Posten has been forced to hire security guard to protect employees from angry Muslims, after it printed a series of cartoons featuring the prophet Mohammed
http://www.jp.dk/english_news/artikel:aid=3318352/ |
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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Hypnotist - How many Christian countries actually carry out any of those brutalities as laid down in the Bible? |
These days, not many - though it certainly wasn't always thus. That said, there are still severe penalties for such "anti-Christian" behaviour in some places. Abortion clinics get firebombed. Many sodomy laws in the US lasted until 2003. The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda aren't exactly friendly. Abortion itself is still problematic - in Texas, a doctor who performs an abortion on a 16-year-old girl without parental consent is subject to the death penalty or life without parole.
Most countries with majority Christian populations have enforced a separation between Church and State - a feature, perhaps, of their development.
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| How many muslim countries do, and in how many muslim countries are there powerful political movements to reinstate those punishments under Sharia Law? |
A fair few - though in other Muslim countries such movements are weak, if noticed at all.
Other Muslims would (and do) disagree with the interpretation of Islam that your fundamentalists push for.
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| That should tell you something of the differences between those religions, and why one is far more dangerous than the other. |
Christianity is an older religion. At the age Islam is now, it was arguably far more dangerous. And, as I've already shown, the Bible contains more than enough for someone to cling to if they wished to justify the things Rapier accuses Islam of promoting (and Rapier, your attempt to separate the OT and NT fails, for the simple reason that most Christians don't do so. Try looking at the US Bible Belt's justifications of things like bans on gay marriage, abortions, capital punishment, etc.).
I am quite ready to admit that there are many dangerous Muslims in the world. But Islam says very little that Christianity doesn't. The difference is that (most) Christians have become more tolerant. The teachings underlying the religion are the same as they were during the crusades, the witch-burnings, and so on. It is the people who have changed, not the nature of the religion... and so, I believe the Muslim world can change too.
Of course, if we keep bombing the *beep* out of them regardless of whether they're fundies or reformers, they may decide doing so isn't in their best interests... |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| Abortion clinics get firebombed |
There is no comparison between these infrequent actions and the ongoing, regular violence committed in the name of Islam in almost every muslim country and every country with a sizable muslim population. Yes, violence happens in the name of every religion, but in only one does it occur with tiresome regularity.
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| Try looking at the US Bible Belt's justifications of things like bans on gay marriage, abortions, capital punishment, etc.). |
In the US Bible Belt they want to ban gay marriage. Muslim fundamentalists want to crush homosexuals under stone walls. Notice the difference?
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| It is the people who have changed, not the nature of the religion... and so, I believe the Muslim world can change too. |
But, Christianity was able to change because it contains within it the seeds for that change. Firstly, the example of Jesus tempers much of the Old Testament fire and brimstone. The example of Mohammed only serves to reinforce such brutality. This is an important difference.
Secondly, the Koran is considered to be the actual word of God, which makes any reform far harder than in Christianity. Moreover, with modern communications and the internet, the excuse that 'they are at a different stage of development' doesn't hold water, unless you consider muslims to be incapable of reason. No, the problem is Islam itself. Your optimism is largely unfounded.
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| Of course, if we keep bombing the *beep* out of them regardless of whether they're fundies or reformers, they may decide doing so isn't in their best interests... |
That old chesnut. If it wasn't for the evil West, or Israel, or Chechnya, or Kashmir, the world of Islam would be one of gender equality and freedom! |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:47 am Post subject: ... |
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| Secondly, the Koran is considered to be the actual word of God, which makes any reform far harder than in Christianity. |
Captain Hook's further insight...
Doesn't know Muslims, but knows what they think...
Wants to help those he hates...
Thanks for keeping us informed.
I'll pin a star on your bed-sheet.  |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| You're an imbecile and you bring nothing to the table. I do know muslims, and most muslims, who are religious consider the Koran to be the word of God. Ask any Imam or anyone who knows anything about Islam. This is not a contentious or controversial point, and it is not surprising to see that you are unable to debate on a level above that of a 12 year old boy. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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It seems this thread has gone a little wayward. Back on the subject of riots, France has now experienced six days of riots in its suburban housing estates as it reaps the bitter harvest of decades of unrestricted muslim immigration.
Paris riots spread, shaking French government
The French government was reeling after nearly a week of suburban rioting outside Paris spread to other areas around the capital, laying bare what observers said was the country's failure to address deep problems of poverty and immigration.
Gangs of stone-throwing youths clashed with police and torched 180 cars overnight in several towns north and west of Paris in an escalation of dusk-to-dawn violence that has raged since last Thursday following the death of two teenagers in the northeast suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051102/ts_afp/franceriots_051102170126;_ylt=AscKzatNjiMn3Af9hOpn13uQOrgF;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl |
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