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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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 Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| Who's the ref in this analogy then? |
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Bo Peabody
Joined: 25 Aug 2005
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 6:48 am Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Bo Peabody on Thu May 02, 2013 2:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JeJuJitsu
Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Location: McDonald's
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| Bo Peabody wrote: |
| It is time to move on... for both sides. It's just a tad more difficult when you were the one taking the punches.... and the ref was biased.... and you realize you'll never ever have another shot. |
...or more like getting your @ss kicked by a bigger, stronger, more adept fighter, and then 50 years later , talking smack...basically forgetting your first beat down. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
You're not seriously comparing Nazi treatment of the Jews, to the Japanese colonisation of Korea are you? |
Sure why not? Both were an attempt to exterminate a people and a culture. Both committed crimes against humanity in that goal. Should genocide be a numbers game? |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| JeJuJitsu wrote: |
| Bo Peabody wrote: |
| It is time to move on... for both sides. It's just a tad more difficult when you were the one taking the punches.... and the ref was biased.... and you realize you'll never ever have another shot. |
...or more like getting your @ss kicked by a bigger, stronger, more adept fighter, and then 50 years later , talking smack...basically forgetting your first beat down. |
That's just great. Way to stick up for every bully in the world. This isn't an international friggin' boxing competition. This is one country taking over another by force.
What you're saying is basically might is right. I guess that philosophy is very congenial when you're the stronger power. But if you really subscribe to that philosophy you can't really tell others what they should or shouldn't do because what they 'should' do is whatever they can get away with.
Are there or are there not war criminals at the Japanese shrine? Cos if the German premier were laying wreaths at the grave of Reinhard Heydrich you can bet there'd be protests, and at an international diplomatic level, and that there damn well ought to be. |
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JeJuJitsu
Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Location: McDonald's
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
That's just great. Way to stick up for every bully in the world. This isn't an international friggin' boxing competition. This is one country taking over another by force.
What you're saying is basically might is right. I guess that philosophy is very congenial when you're the stronger power. |
If it weren't for "might makes right"--Korea would not exist, it would be Japanese Western Province Number 2, and Europe would be called Germany today.
| Quote: |
But if you really subscribe to that philosophy you can't really tell others what they should or shouldn't do because what they 'should' do is whatever they can get away with. |
Might makes right isn't a philosophy, it's the way of the world...since the first monkeyman learned to swing a bone and throw a spear, to well, now.
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Are there or are there not war criminals at the Japanese shrine? Cos if the German premier were laying wreaths at the grave of Reinhard Heydrich you can bet there'd be protests, and at an international diplomatic level, and that there damn well ought to be. |
Sure, if the Japs are putting wreaths on specific, known leaders of proven incidents, be pissed. But they aren't. Being that Koreans can't or don't particularly care about properly discerning exact meaning/actions/semantics--and in turn, appropriate reactionary behavior is simply a result of being pinheads, not thinking the matter through properly, ergo, not wanting to...simply, the Koreans WANT to be offended. The issue of what happened in the past is real, but to grasp for straws at the past, simply because a "thing" references that era is not in and of itself worth of offense.
In essense, what the Koreans are doing will put them on the losing side again...this time diplomatically, as anyone on the outside looking in sees Koreans as lunatics on this PARTICULAR issue/incident. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| In essense, what the Koreans are doing will put them on the losing side again...this time diplomatically, as anyone on the outside looking in sees Koreans as lunatics on this PARTICULAR issue/incident. |
Well, I think the Chinese tend to agree with the Koreans on this issue. And they've got about a quarter of the world's population, no small potatoes that. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:28 am Post subject: |
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JeJuJitsu:
Suppose Heydrich's name were inscribed along with a thousand others on a German war memorial and Schroeder went every year to lay wreaths on it. Would it be ok then?
Do you think the Chinese are also lunatics?
Last edited by Privateer on Sun Nov 13, 2005 4:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Sure, if the Japs are putting wreaths on specific, known leaders of proven incidents, be pissed. |
Thing is though, the Germans never would have been allowed to entomb their war criminals in such an august location, whether or not the Chancellor laid a wreath on their graves. And I do wonder about the reason for this double standard in the treatment of war criminals.
EDIT: I suspect(don't know for sure) that the allies were reluctant to mess around too much with Japanese culture after the war. And Hirohito and the Boys could lay some claim to being heirs to that culture, unlike Hitler et al who were basically seen as a bunch of upstart pychopaths. So, yeah(the reasoning went) Hirohito should probably at least have to make a court appearance, but that would upset the conservatives, so we'll just let him sit on the throne until he dies. And okay, Tojo probably deserves to have his corpse tossed into a pauper's grave somewhere, but that would just make us look like Ugly Americans, so we'll let him go into a nice state shrine instead. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| Sure why not? Both were an attempt to exterminate a people and a culture. |
The Japanese attempted to wipe out the Koreans? What the hell are you talking about? I think you need to read some history books on this topic, and look up the term 'genocide' in the dictionary. |
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ifa79
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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The Germans have war guilt, which is why they are now accepted by the rest of Europe and don't elect many far right leaders. Austria which doesn't have the war guilt is different, but that is another topic...
Today's Japanese have no war guilt and have little idea what their grandfathers did in Korea, Nanking and Hong Kong. It was brutal, and they did try to assimilate the Koreans by banning, the Korean language, names and by interbreeding.(Not as harsh as systematic killing of 10million people, but still trying to eliminate a race similar to the British style in Ireland and Scotland way back when)
Anyway, Koreans are angry that the Japanese don't teach the correct history (although neither do Chinese nor Koreans, South or North)
As for the shrine, why don't they remove the war criminals and have a shrine dedicated to the ordinary soldiers? Is this possible? I don't know much about shrines. |
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JeJuJitsu
Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Location: McDonald's
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| ifa79 wrote: |
| ...they did try to assimilate the Koreans by banning, the Korean language, names and by interbreeding... |
The HORROR! Interbreeding! YUCK! Tainiting the superior pure Korean bloodline! I mean, the nerve! |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| JeJuJitsu wrote: |
Sure, if the Japs are putting wreaths on specific, known leaders of proven incidents, be pissed. But they aren't. Being that Koreans can't or don't particularly care about properly discerning exact meaning/actions/semantics--and in turn, appropriate reactionary behavior is simply a result of being pinheads, not thinking the matter through properly, ergo, not wanting to...simply, the Koreans WANT to be offended. The issue of what happened in the past is real, but to grasp for straws at the past, simply because a "thing" references that era is not in and of itself worth of offense.
In essense, what the Koreans are doing will put them on the losing side again...this time diplomatically, as anyone on the outside looking in sees Koreans as lunatics on this PARTICULAR issue/incident. |
I don't disagree with you that Koreans may be looking to be offended; and they're certainly pretty thin-skinned about matters of national pride, etc.
But the fact is that major war criminals are enshrined there. And when Koizumi goes there he never, ever says anything to the effect of "I am solely honoring those ordinary Japanese who fought for their country, and have no desire to glorify those who ordered atrocities." It's not hard to conclude that he is trying to send a signal to the hard-right reactionaries in Japan.
Otherwise why do something he knows is guaranteed to hurt relations with China and Korea? I have to say that I don't see Koreans as lunatics on this issue at all. Japan refuses to teach its children about its horrible conduct during WWII. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| As for the shrine, why don't they remove the war criminals and have a shrine dedicated to the ordinary soldiers? Is this possible? I don't know much about shrines. |
The fact that they refuse to do this leads me to suspect that the Japanese goverment is deliberately trying to honour the war criminals, as a sop to the far right. Or at least trying not to offend the far right.
Then again, I don't know much about shrines either. Perhaps it is a big taboo to remove a body? |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, there are no bodies there. It's just dedicated to their spirits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine
I think the real question is why Koizumi has gone there so many times despite the damage it does to relations with China and Korea, and especially considering how rare it was for Prime Ministers before him to go there. |
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