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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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 Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:42 am Post subject: |
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privateer..
thanks for that.
And yes, in essence, i told them, "Okay...stand on either side of the bike...do <this big showy point> and say your line 'this bike is better than....' blah blah blah" the DAY they were supposed to record.
RIGHT before i was to film them i just kept encouraging them saying, "listen, just READ what you have and point at the bike" that i carried into the classroom for them (when it was one of THEIR bikes).
One thing is for certain, it had very little to do with ability and EVERYTHING to do with attitude.
what i didn't like is that the korean teacher also called them stupid (a word they most definately know). |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| khyber wrote: |
I wonder when it became a logical conclusion that someone who doesn't take the time to edit their posts is obviously a horrid ESL teacher.
Fact is guy, you haven't seen the workings of my class, you know very little about me: Why is it you feel a need extend a comment about my poorly written post into an "otherwise" baseless insult? |
You mis-read what I posted. I made it pretty clear that if an issue of writing quickly and not editing, all is understood. An insult would have been an assumption. I qualified everything I said to allow for simply not editing. Now I'm more worried... damn. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| khyber wrote: |
privateer..
thanks for that.
And yes, in essence, i told them, "Okay...stand on either side of the bike...do <this big showy point> and say your line 'this bike is better than....' blah blah blah" the DAY they were supposed to record.
RIGHT before i was to film them i just kept encouraging them saying, "listen, just READ what you have and point at the bike" that i carried into the classroom for them (when it was one of THEIR bikes).
One thing is for certain, it had very little to do with ability and EVERYTHING to do with attitude.
what i didn't like is that the korean teacher also called them stupid (a word they most definately know). |
How much consideration have you given to the cultural issues inherent here? (Not a slam, a question.) If a student *expects* to fail, they will simply do so. A Korean, in particular, will simply not start.
The manner with which you are trying to encourage them seems to be more begging, pleading, or goading. I do not mean to imply that is what you intended at the time. Typically, if you do the work for your students (bringing in the bike) as opposed to brainstorming with them and getting them to do it, you will most likely be encouraging them to expect that *you* will rescue them. (I say "most likely" because there are so many factors involved, but I have only what you've written to go on...)
I could see how your statements, "RIGHT before i was to film them i just kept encouraging them saying, "listen, just READ what you have and point at the bike" that i carried into the classroom for them (when it was one of THEIR bikes)," would have the opposite effect you were hoping for.
The first bit about reading and pointing makes it pretty clear they *need you to tell thm what to do.* (And, in fact, sometimes they do!!! If this is your lowest group, they probably did!! ZPD, baby!) The getting the bicycle bit might reinforce their utter lack of creativity/interest/avoidance. Simple solution? "Any of you have a bike? Here? Could you use that? (Probably not said that way.)
No response.
"Hey, Jin Su, go get your bike."
Sometimes I catch myself and avoid doing something not very useful by just remembering a saying I learned as a trainer: good teachers know what to *do*. Literally. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
Maybe I'm missing something but the OP said they were 'bang on' when they tried so maybe it's less about their 'zone of proximal development' than their attitude.
It's hard to judge based only on someone else's post. So what would be a good way to have proceeded? Give them something a bit less challenging? Give them extra help? Break it down into stages and motivate them by rewarding them for each stage? |
Actually, the OP said one student in the group worked and the group overall got the work done. This doesn't indicate to me that the "group" was doing well. The OP also said three low students made up the group. OK, why? Two of the very basic tenets of group work is mixed levels and specific assignments that fit the level of each student. With three, you'd try to have one hi, one lo, one mid. It would seem the students made their own groups or were assigned randomly? The high student might have primary responsibility for the text, the next for the creative elements/prsentation/story board and the low for the art or what have you. (Just tossing out a quick possibility... too many unknowns to know if this would have been workable.)
The fact that they started well then hit a wall would also indicate a ZPD issue, particularly if only one was really participating in the first place. Then add in that there were three low students in the same group... why would you expect anything other than what happened? This exercise was actually rather high level and complex. At the very least the students might have been given a very clear and complete example of what a final product mught have been, but that modeling wasn't mentioned. (It's OK for students to essentially be copying the form and structure you've given them. That's what you want them to learn, after all. And language learning is all about steps, right? So the next time you give them more responsibility for form and content... blah, blah, blah.)
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| I don't know but if it was clear from the start that these prizes were for completing the project I'd say the OP was right to deny them. Better to avoid the situation but once in it, better to be fair but firm. Maybe make them do something to earn the prize even at the last minute - and if they refuse, too bad for them. |
I didn't address this issue.
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| You do bring up a good point about how Korean teachers handle things, though. I have often had to tell them to not engage in conversation for me when they are translating. Repeat exactly what I say and what the students say. Nothing more, nothing less. It is virtually impossible to accomplish, however, because they seem to almost universally assume *you just don't get it.* Aigooo... |
I think maybe this is the same principle on which they translate English movie lines into Korean subtitles? Not, "What did they say?" but "What would a Korean say in this situation?".  It's not just a free translation but a cultural translation! It kind of makes sense that they do it that way but it can lead to some surprises.[/quote]
Actually, I was referring to Korean teachers taking over the conversation, not to the quality or accuracy of the translation. Both are issues, but my Korean is too poor to judge how well they are doing except by context clues. |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Now I'm more worried... damn. |
withdrawn...i dont want you walking on egg shells.... please go ahead and tease me. And if you need clarification, i'd be happy to oblige.
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| The first bit about reading and pointing makes it pretty clear they *need you to tell thm what to do.* (And, in fact, sometimes they do!!! If this is your lowest group, they probably did!! ZPD, baby!) |
This is not something they couldn't do by themselves.
These students, though in grade five did breakdancing at the school talent show. This was easily something they could achieve WITHOUT my instruction....
proper encouraging on the other hand...
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| Simple solution? "Any of you have a bike? Here? Could you use that? (Probably not said that way.) |
done and done...ask them. They didn't even give me a straight answer... yes, then no, then yes... then finally one of them said a confirmed yes. Of course i suggested one of them get it.
I TRULY am not the kind of teacher who likes OR wants to do the kids' work. I mean, they DID after all create their script with little help from me (just gave a few little ideas).
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| How much consideration have you given to the cultural issues inherent here? (Not a slam, a question.) If a student *expects* to fail, they will simply do so. A Korean, in particular, will simply not start. |
Do you think that this is a cultural thing or MORE of a problem with teachers telling poorly behaving students that they can't do the job?
I have SEEN these students work and be encouraged by my praise: Even the boys in this group (next class we made a little book and they were TOTALLY on top of it!).
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| The manner with which you are trying to encourage them seems to be more begging, pleading, or goading. |
yeah...i did feel a bit annoying when i kept saying, "Boys, really, start. It's time to make a plan". I also reminded them of the prize they WOULD recieve (EVERY group was ensured something)
Any tips on BETTER forms of encouragement?
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| Two of the very basic tenets of group work is mixed levels and specific assignments that fit the level of each student. With three, you'd try to have one hi, one lo, one mid. It would seem the students made their own groups or were assigned randomly? |
randomly BUT...the other two groups fit your description and THIS one did (to a very small extent). They WERE mixed levels, however, their "high level student" wasn't quite as high as a student in the other group.
Another LARGE problem, had I put one very intelligent student into that group is that, with NOTHING would have changed. The higher level student would have completed all the work while they were swinging on tables and drawing pictures they had no intention on keeping. They end up relying on smart students not for ONLY for the text (something that i had ASSURED them was totally sufficient) but for everything.
As for assignments: Seeing as how i left the format pretty open to them, they were able to take upon themselves as much, or as little production value (into their commercials) as they wanted.
I had a few other comments but they'll wait for now...
thanks for the imput though! |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| khyber wrote: |
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| Now I'm more worried... damn. |
withdrawn...i dont want you walking on egg shells.... please go ahead and tease me. And if you need clarification, i'd be happy to oblige. |
Aigooo... On-line communication: the adventure continues.
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| The first bit about reading and pointing makes it pretty clear they *need you to tell thm what to do.* (And, in fact, sometimes they do!!! If this is your lowest group, they probably did!! ZPD, baby!) |
This is not something they couldn't do by themselves. These students, though in grade five did breakdancing at the school talent show. This was easily something they could achieve WITHOUT my instruction... proper encouraging on the other hand... |
My only comment would be that whether students do perform or not on a task may be the best indicator of whether they *can* or not. One thing that became very clear to me when observing teachers is that our instructions and modeling are often not nearly as clear to our students as they are to us. Don't know if this was an issue or not, just an exploratory comment.
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| Simple solution? "Any of you have a bike? Here? Could you use that? (Probably not said that way.) |
done and done...ask them. They didn't even give me a straight answer... yes, then no, then yes... then finally one of them said a confirmed yes. Of course i suggested one of them get it. |
Sorry, that wasn't clear from the OP.
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| I TRULY am not the kind of teacher who likes OR wants to do the kids' work. I mean, they DID after all create their script with little help from me (just gave a few little ideas). |
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| How much consideration have you given to the cultural issues inherent here? (Not a slam, a question.) If a student *expects* to fail, they will simply do so. A Korean, in particular, will simply not start. |
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Do you think that this is a cultural thing or MORE of a problem with teachers telling poorly behaving students that they can't do the job?
I have SEEN these students work and be encouraged by my praise: Even the boys in this group (next class we made a little book and they were TOTALLY on top of it!). |
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This just supports my guess (and it is only a guess) that there was something inherent in the project that they were stymied by, whether it be academically or emotionally. But, yes, it is an avoidance culture. The fear of delivering an inferior product is a real one in any culture, but more so in Confucian cultures. Kids (and adults) will sometimes shut down rather than attempt something they think they cannot do or cannot do well.
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| The manner with which you are trying to encourage them seems to be more begging, pleading, or goading. |
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| yeah...i did feel a bit annoying when i kept saying, "Boys, really, start. It's time to make a plan". I also reminded them of the prize they WOULD recieve (EVERY group was ensured something) Any tips on BETTER forms of encouragement? |
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Not really... Really hard to do out of context... well... Did they have a clear model of what a finished product might be? Or, did you try walking through a model of what to do with them as if you were part of the group? Did they actually have assigned roles or did you let them sort that out? Did they perhaps have th impression a certain level of quality was required, beyond accomplishing the basic academic elements? (Sometimes sutdents don't have confidence they can do something very well and need permission to just do they best they can or that the basic academic aspects are what's important.) At times it is OK to set a consequence once you are sure they can, but simply are not. I recently ahd a student who virtually always produced almost nothing. He always said, "No English." One day, I sent him into the office with his work and told him he could return when he had a certain amount of work. Not something I like to do, but it worked in this one case to break the kid out of his own rut.
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| Quote: |
| Two of the very basic tenets of group work is mixed levels and specific assignments that fit the level of each student. With three, you'd try to have one hi, one lo, one mid. It would seem the students made their own groups or were assigned randomly? |
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randomly BUT...the other two groups fit your description and THIS one did (to a very small extent). They WERE mixed levels, however, their "high level student" wasn't quite as high as a student in the other group.
Another LARGE problem, had I put one very intelligent student into that group is that, with NOTHING would have changed. The higher level student would have completed all the work while they were swinging on tables and drawing pictures they had no intention on keeping. They end up relying on smart students not for ONLY for the text (something that i had ASSURED them was totally sufficient) but for everything.
As for assignments: Seeing as how i left the format pretty open to them, they were able to take upon themselves as much, or as little production value (into their commercials) as they wanted.
I had a few other comments but they'll wait for now...
thanks for the imput though! |
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Your first point brings up a good point. You will see teachers who use group work as test marking time, grading time, break time, what have you. This is an incorrect understanding of group work. Group work should be monitored. One of the reasons is to avoid what you anticipated, that the high student would simply do everything. You just don't allow it, but you have to be monitoring the class. Also, group work is not intended to eliminate the teacher from the equation, but to turn over as much of the process to the students as possible. But you should still be there helping, answering questions that they can't figure out, praising, whatever. Heck, the teacher moving around the room is the simplest form of behavior control, too, eh?
Your second point brings up another problem: assigned jobs is really part of the basic process. It is by design that the high student acts as a peer teacher, that the mid acts as peer teacher and student, and the low student gets positive support from their peers yet is given something they can succeed at, thus feel good about themselves. I try to assign jobs unless specifically challenging a group to be fully independent is an underlying goal.
This is turning into a great discussion. Thanks for your patience.
I'd love to hear how people are using group work in Korea. Those inpublic schools, in particular, should have some great experiences to share given the large classes. |
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