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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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 Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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At 2:10 p.m., eight minutes before the scheduled departure, as others passengers were still boarding, Alpizar "uttered threatening words," warning nearby passengers that he had a bomb in his backpack, said Jim Bauer, special agent in charge of the Federal Air Marshals office in Miami.
The two marshals overheard Alpizar, he said.
"They came out of their cover and confronted him," Bauer said.
Alpizar fled toward the exit; some passengers said he ran frantically up the aisle.
The marshals chased him onto the jet bridge, where they shot him, fearing he might be grabbing an explosive device from his backpack.
According to some passengers, four to five shots were fired. |
This is from the Yahoo account. I have read other accounts, and have yet to find one that says he was running and yelling "I have a bomb". The closest thing we have to a quote is that "he uttered threatening words".
As I said, things will be come clearer after the dust settles and accounts are given. Meanwhile, the man, a Christian missionary, by the way, is dead, his wife is a widow, the air marshall must surely be traumatized, and the situation is hell for a lot of people. A truly bad situation all around. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| I only skimmed over that article, and did not actually read the last sentence. I should not have posted it. Moving on... |
Sir, you certainly did read the article carefully, and you did not merely skim it, and you specifically highlighted two sentences from the last paragraph and purposely ommitted the last one, which I provided. You wanted us to believe something that was not true, hoping no one would bother to click the link and check facts. You are dishonest, and your disavowal now is more dishonesty.
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| Like I said, terrorists win when they make us so afraid we shoot ourselves in the foot. |
You keep repeating this cliche, yet have still not answered as to how the Marshall should have responded, taking into account that he did not know what we now know. |
As the facts become more available, it is very clear that the marshal made a bad call and acted rashly on insufficient evidence. I agree with des that he will spend the rest of his life regretting his moment's decision.
I think there may be some risk in flight travel from the actions of terrorists, but it appears just as true that another risk comes from cops on the plane. That is scary. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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And the Stones & Glass Houses award goes to....
Bobster, you are incredible. You jump on BV for thr sin of ommission at exactly the same time you have done the same deed yourself. I had met your challenge, providing the link whose article included the following:
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| the suicide bomber was shot and killed by police. |
And for reasons I can only attribute to sloppiness and nothing willful (as much as I'd like to), you tell us
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| but the example you gave was not about a guy being shot, and that was my question. |
BV has acknowledged his error and so should you. Nobody's going to jump on you the way you have jumped on BV. |
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howie2424
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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desultude said
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| I have read other accounts, and have yet to find one that says he was running and yelling "I have a bomb". The closest thing we have to a quote is that "he uttered threatening words". |
Most astute point made in this off the rails thread so far. |
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rok_the-boat
Joined: 24 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| If the marshall was legit in shooting the guy, then why did he not consider shooting the wife - who was his associate. Had the guy really been a bomber, his wife would have been an accomplice. So, why didn't he shoot her too? And if he had shot her, would that be OK too? |
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gdimension
Joined: 05 Jul 2005
Location: Jeju
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| rok_the-boat wrote: |
| If the marshall was legit in shooting the guy, then why did he not consider shooting the wife - who was his associate. Had the guy really been a bomber, his wife would have been an accomplice. So, why didn't he shoot her too? And if he had shot her, would that be OK too? |
I feel to see how this statement (implied in bold above) is valid. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| feel or fail? |
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gdimension
Joined: 05 Jul 2005
Location: Jeju
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| feel or fail? |
I often do both, but in this case I meant "fail". 
Tanks.
I mean, thanks. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| howie2424 wrote: |
desultude said
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| I have read other accounts, and have yet to find one that says he was running and yelling "I have a bomb". The closest thing we have to a quote is that "he uttered threatening words". |
Most astute point made in this off the rails thread so far. |
LA VOZ DE AZTLAN NEWS BULLETIN
Los Angeles, Alta California
December 8, 2005
Air Marshals lied about slain Latino passenger saying "I have a bomb"
It now appears that Air Marshals lied about a mentally ill Latino passenger saying "I have a bomb" just before they shot him at the Miami International Airport yesterday. The fact is Air Marshals over-reacted when dealing with a Middle Eastern looking passenger who was experiencing a "fear of flying" panic attack.
The victim, Mr. Rigoberto Alpizar, according to his accompanying wife, is a bi-polar patient who ran out of his medications during their trip. While waiting for the airplane to take off on the next leg of the American Airline flight, Mr. Alpizar panicked and wanted to get off the airplane. He started to run down the isle towards the door when two Air Marshals confronted him. Instead of subduing him physically, they went for their guns and shot him five or six times. In order to justify the shooting, the Air Marshals appear to have lied about Mr. Alpizar saying that he had a bomb.
No passenger witnesses have come forward saying that they heard Mr. Alpizar yell "I have a bomb".
Witnesses interviewed after the shooting described instead how Alpizar's wife tried to tell fellow passengers and Air Marshals that her husband suffered from bi-polar disorder. "I did hear the lady say her husband was bipolar and had not had his medication," said Mary Gardner, a passenger.
Accounts by other passengers suggest that Alpizar began behaving strangely before he was challenged by the Air Marshals. "He didn't look stable," said fellow passenger John McAlhany. Mr. McAlhany adds, "They put a gun to the back of my head and said: 'Put your hands on the seat'. That was more scary than anything else," passenger John McAlhany said. "'I don't know if they shot an innocent man or not. I don't think he was armed or had a bomb. I think he had a mental illness," Mr. McAlhany added.
"I don't think they really had to shoot him," Mr. McAlhany concluded.
There have now been numerous abuses of Arabs, Blacks and Latinos by Air Marshals but none have ended in a shooting tragedy. The fact is that people of color are in more danger from White, usually veterans of the Iraq War, Air Marshals than from actual terrorists.
Many of the Air Marshals, some who are mentally unstable themselves because of war experiences, have been trained to shoot first and ask questions later.
Under these circumstance, Latinos, Middle Easterners and other people of color are in dire danger when flying as passengers on American airlines.
http://www.aztlan.net/air_marshals_shoot_latino_passenger.htm |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar's source wrote: |
There have now been numerous abuses of Arabs, Blacks and Latinos by Air Marshals but none have ended in a shooting tragedy. The fact is that people of color are in more danger from White, usually veterans of the Iraq War, Air Marshals than from actual terrorists.
Many of the Air Marshals, some who are mentally unstable themselves because of war experiences, have been trained to shoot first and ask questions later.
Under these circumstance, Latinos, Middle Easterners and other people of color are in dire danger when flying as passengers on American airlines |
Well, this is obviously a completely unbiased report, and should be accepted as 100% factual.  |
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chiaa
Joined: 23 Aug 2003
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| gdimension wrote: |
| rok_the-boat wrote: |
| If the marshall was legit in shooting the guy, then why did he not consider shooting the wife - who was his associate. Had the guy really been a bomber, his wife would have been an accomplice. So, why didn't he shoot her too? And if he had shot her, would that be OK too? |
I feel to see how this statement (implied in bold above) is valid. |
I love when my wife wears the big cardboard sign that I gave her for Christmas that says: Chiaa's wife (with a rather nice picture of me too!) Really helps people identify that we are together... |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:32 am Post subject: |
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Passenger John Mcalhany told The Associated Press on Thursday that Alpizar bumped into him as he ran off the aircraft, and he did not hear him say anything about a bomb.
"The first time I heard the word bomb was when I was interviewed by the FBI," McAlhany said. "They kept asking if I heard him say the B-word. And I said, 'What is the B-word?' And they were like, 'Bomb.' I said no. They said, 'Are you sure?' And I am."
"This was wrong," McAlhany added. "This man should be with his family for Christmas. Now he's dead."
Mary Gardner, another passenger, also said Thursday she not hear Alpizar mention a bomb.
A telephone message left with the Department of Homeland Security seeking comment late Thursday was not immediately returned. A person answering the phone at the Federal Air Marshals service said no one was available for after-hours comments and referred calls to Homeland Security. |
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051209/ap_on_re_us/airplane_shooting
So, I wonder how some of you like your crow cooked?
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rok_the-boat
Joined: 24 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| It looks like this might turn out to be a case of London Menzies hysteria. The terroroists have the air marshalls spooked. Personally, I think some people are just trigger happy and out for a kill. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:49 am Post subject: |
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| Leslie Cheswyck wrote: |
| BV has acknowledged his error and so should you. |
He dis not commit an error. He committed a falsehood, deliberately, then tried to claim it as other than than that. You simply do not highlight several pararaphs and fail to highlight the very last sentence, the last senternce in a 3-sentence paragraph, unless you are doing so intentionally - and he also ommitted, deliberately the first paragraph of the article which made clear from the beginning that - and both sentence he ommitted conflicted (contradicted) the cute little sarcastic tag line he composed as a coda :
Remember folks, all we have to fear is fear itself. Don't worry Jihadists blowing up subways, planes and nightclubs. Really, it's nothing to worry about.
Please, Ches, do not abuse yourself by believing that this was an error - the only error bv made is in trying to sell us bogus goods and thinking we'd be dumb enough to smile and say "Thank you, sir, may may I have another?"
rok_the-boat
| Quote: |
| It looks like this might turn out to be a case of London Menzies hysteria |
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Teufelswacht
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Location: Land Of The Not Quite Right
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:54 am Post subject: |
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[quote="desultude"]
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Passenger John Mcalhany told The Associated Press on Thursday that Alpizar bumped into him as he ran off the aircraft, and he did not hear him say anything about a bomb.
"The first time I heard the word bomb was when I was interviewed by the FBI," McAlhany said. "They kept asking if I heard him say the B-word. And I said, 'What is the B-word?' And they were like, 'Bomb.' I said no. They said, 'Are you sure?' And I am."
"This was wrong," McAlhany added. "This man should be with his family for Christmas. Now he's dead."
Mary Gardner, another passenger, also said Thursday she not hear Alpizar mention a bomb.
A telephone message left with the Department of Homeland Security seeking comment late Thursday was not immediately returned. A person answering the phone at the Federal Air Marshals service said no one was available for after-hours comments and referred calls to Homeland Security. |
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051209/ap_on_re_us/airplane_shooting
So, I wonder how some of you like your crow cooked?
[/quote/]
OK. So how many people were on the plane? Let's see, we've heard from only 2 according to the link posted by our friend Desultude. Sorry, but the crow shouldn't be cooked just yet. I think I'll take your earlier advice Desultude and wait to dine until the investigation is complete. Who knows? How do you like YOUR crow cooked? Heh, heh, heh.
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