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[Wrench]

Liberals to propose handgun ban

Wednesday, December 7, 2005 Posted at 10:26 PM EST

Canadian Press

Ottawa — Prime Minister Paul Martin will venture into a violence-plagued area of Toronto on Thursday to announce a sweeping ban on handguns.

Mr. Martin was scheduled to visit Toronto's troubled Jane-Finch area to make a "safer communities announcement." Liberal sources have confirmed the announcement includes a ban on handguns.

No other details were immediately available.

Handguns are already severely restricted in Canada and a handgun registry has been in force for more than 60 years.

But a rash of recent gun deaths in Toronto has prompted Martin to promise to crack down even more. Gunfire was responsible for 50 of the 74 murders so far this year in the city.

The rash of shootings prompted city police to launch a gun amnesty program in November, during which they collected 261 weapons and more than 1,500 rounds of ammunition.

A ban on handguns is likely to be popular in other large urban centres as well, like Montreal and Vancouver, where residents have been disturbed by recent firearms violence.

Windsor MP Joe Comartin, the New Democratic Party's justice critic, said the announcement sounds like "smoke and mirrors."

"Basically, all handguns in Canada are illegal now," said Mr. Comartin. "The only people who get permits are those who are using them for recreational purposes or those who need it for their own personal safety and there's not a lot of those that are granted."

He said the announcement sounds like "a political ploy during an election to garner some headlines and make it look like you're actually doing something when, in fact, what you're proposing is pretty meaningless."

Given the number of stolen guns used in crime, Mr. Comartin said there had been some discussion earlier this year at the all-party Commons justice committee about tightening regulations governing safe storage and use of handguns. But that is something that falls under provincial jurisdiction.

Mr. Comartin said the one thing the federal government could do would be to stop the flow of illegal firearms into Canada from the United States.

It remains to be seen how the ban will go over in rural areas, where the issue is more about rifles. Many Prairie rifle owners have never forgiven the Liberals for creating a registry for long guns.

Created 10 years ago, the registry was supposed to cost a mere $2-million. Instead, its cost has ballooned to more than $1-billion.

The Conservatives, who declined comment on the expected handgun ban Wednesday, have called the program a boondoggle and Auditor General Sheila Fraser has sharply criticized the waste and mismanagment that have pervaded the registry.

Gun owners warned at the time that the registry was the first step toward confiscation of their guns. Mr. Martin's announcement may be seen as confirmation of their worst fears.

The Liberals, who desperately need to regain support in Quebec and hang on to their urban base in Ontario, appear to be willing to sacrifice their meagre support in the Prairies in a bid to bolster their central Canadian base.

But the gambit may yet cost Deputy Prime Minister Anne McLellan her Edmonton seat and make it more difficult for Finance Minister Ralph Goodale to hang on to his somewhat safer Regina riding.

Currently, handguns in Canada are classified as either restricted or prohibited weapons.

Canadians can receive a licence to own a restricted weapon if they can prove it's part of a gun collection or used for target practice or target-shooting competitions. They can also be granted licences to use the firearm under "limited circumstances," such as in the role of a police officer.

Initial reaction to the handgun ban was predictably negative from the firearms lobby.

"It's going to accomplish nothing," said Wayne Fields of LaSalle, Ont., president of the Law-Abiding Registered Firearms Association. "There's already all types of legislation and illegal use of handguns is out of control."

Mr. Fields said the Liberals have long been focusing their energy in the wrong direction.

"They have to concentrate on the illegal drugs and the criminals that are using the firearms — get them off the street. They're not going to get rid of guns — it's impossible."

Mr. Fields said while he doesn't think the announcement will do Mr. Martin any good on the national stage, he admitted it might get him some votes in Ontario, and particularly in Toronto.

"He's trying to protect his strength here in Ontario against the Conservatives, in particular in Toronto where they're strong. The election is going to be won or lost in Ontario.

hey boys time to get annoyed.. all restricted military type rifles are included in here as well.



This especially sucks for me since I have firearms. They can pry them from my cold dead hands. I am not giving up 2k+ worth of money on a stupid liberal whim. Man I wish the west seperated from the east.

[bucheon bum]

San Francisco banned hand guns in the last election in november.

THink it's being held up in court now, no big surprise.

[Cthulhu]

You're right, Wrench, it's peabrains from the East trying to dictate things to the rest of the country. The vast majority of hanguns used in crimes in Canada were illegally brought into the country from the U.S. The Liberals are ignoring that oft-repeated fact because they think they can make a show of getting tough on crime without actually getting tough on crime.

They figure taking the legally purchased and registered hanguns from responsible owners won't hurt politically since they are betting that the vast majority of ill-informed suburbanites won't bother to look into the reality of the situation, instead following in the footsteps of the knee jerk reaction that led to the pointless money pit that has been the national gun registry. Maybe if they recognized the fact that the guns used in the rash of murders recently in Toronto weren't coming from law-abiding owners they'd actually get a clue. But that wouldn't fit in with their ideology or their vote-pandering. Klein has his head screwed on right in rejecting the whole idea--the peabrains in Ottawa don't, and I'm sorry to say I live in the same province as said peabrains.

It's yet another reason the Liberals can kiss my ass come election time because I'll be hiding my guns and becoming a law-abiding criminal long before the police contact me about the whereabouts of my legally purchased and registered handguns. I put up with all of their bullshit regulations until now, but no more.

[The Man known as The Man]

Banning handguns is a great idea, and the federal Liberal Party will get my vote because of it.

After the noise of the election, perhaps they might put forward legislation banning murder.

[VanIslander]

[The Man known as The Man]

no-Canada lacks legitimacy


Canada has the infrastructure of a real country, but is not a real country.


here's a choice. VI-if you were in Vancouver-Center, which of the 2 winners would you vote for-takinginto account the Conservatives have no chance, and the Green Party is a protest vote that has no chance of electing an MP


a) the best spokesperson in favour of multiculturalism, and against reacism, Hedy Frey.


b) Svend Robinson.


What 2 stellar candidates-and they both visibly have severe mental health issues

[VanIslander]

[Wrench]

Here is an interesting Read.

Where Kids and Guns Do Mix

By STEPHEN P. HALBROOK

It��s a commonplace that the U.S. is far more violent than Western Europe because Americans have easy access to guns. It��s also false. To see why, visit Switzerland. Traveling around by car or train, you see shooting ranges everywhere. If there��s a Schuetzenfest (shooting festival) in town, you��ll find rifles slung on hat racks in restaurants, and you��ll see men and women of all ages walking, biking and taking the tram with rifles over their shoulders, to and from the range. They stroll right past the police station and no one bats an eye.

Switzerland has more firepower per person than any other country in the world, yet it is one of the safest places to be. The Swiss Federal Police Office reports that in 1997 there were 87 intentional homicides and 102 attempted homicides in the entire country. Of these 189 murders and attempts, 91 involved firearms. With its population of seven million (including 1.2 million foreigners), Switzerland had a homicide rate of 1.2 per 100,000. There were 2,498 robberies and attempted robberies, of which 546 involved firearms, resulting in a robbery rate of 36 per 100,000. Almost half of these crimes were committed by non-resident foreigners, whom locals call "criminal tourists." In 1993, not a single armed robbery was reported in Geneva. By contrast, Britain, which has strict gun control laws, had a homicide rate in 1994 of 1.4 per 100,000 population, and a robbery rate of 116 per 100,000.

In the wake of the Littleton, Cob., school massacre, Congress is rushing to

pass new gun-control measures; the House next week will take up proposed legislation that has already passed the Senate. But there have been no school massacres in Switzerland, where guns and kids mix freely. At shooting matches, bicycles aplenty are parked outside. Inside the firing shelter, competitors pay 12-year-olds to keep score. Sixteen-year-olds shoot rifles with men and women of all ages. A tourist brochure in Zurich recommends September��s Knabenschiessen (boy��s shooting contest): "The oldest Zurich tradition.. . consists of a shooting contest at the Albisguetli (range) for 12 to 16 year-old boys and girls and a colorful three-day fun-fair."

While many shoot for sport, all males age 20 to 42 are required
# to keep rifles or pistols at home. Gun shops abound. Yet firearms are rarely used in crime. In America, firearms take on a sinister reputation from the nightly news and violent movies. But in Switzerland, firearms symbolize a wholesome, community activity. And since its founding

in 1291, Switzerland has depended on an armed populace for its defense. William Tell used a crossbow not only to shoot the apple from his son��s head, but also to kill the tyrant Gessler. For centuries, the can-tonal republic defeated the powerful armies of the European monarchs. "The Swiss are well armed and enjoy great freedom," Machiavelli wrote in 1532.

The Swiss militia model inspired the rebellious American colonists. John Adams praised the democratic Swiss cantons, where every man was entitled to vote on laws and to bear arms. Patrick

Henry lauded the Swiss for maintaining their independence without "a mighty and splendid President" or a standing army. The Swiss influence is clear in the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which provides: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

There may have been various reasons why the Nazis did not invade Switzerland, but one of those reasons is that every Swiss man had a rifle at home. For this we have no better record than the Nazi invasion plans, which stated that, because of Swiss shooting skills, Switzerland would be difficult to conquer and pacify. European countries occupied by the Nazis had strict gun controls before the war, and the registration lists facilitated confiscation of firearms.

Traditionally, the Swiss cantons have had few firearm regulations, and the first federal firearms law was recently enacted. Certain firearm purchases require a permit, but others do not. On retirement, every soldier may keep his rifle or pistol. And any Swiss citizen can purchase surplus military assault rifles.

Why is well-armed Switzerland so free from crime? The bottom line is one of attitude. Populations with a strong sense of civic virtue do not experience sensational massacres or high crime rates. To the contrary, armed citizens deter crime. America��s lawful "gun culture" is as peaceful as the Swiss. Sadly, some of America��s subcultures are not.

Mr. Haibrook, an attorney in Fairfax, Va., is author of "Target Switzerland" (Sarpedon, 1998).

Armed to the Teeth, and Free

Europeon version below!

The Wall Street Journal Europe 4 June 1999by Stephen P. Halbrook

In 1994, when the U.S. Congress debated whether to ban "assault weapons,"

a talk show host asked then-Senator Bill Bradley (New Jersey), a sponsor of the ban, whether guns cause crime. The host noted that, in Switzerland, all males are issued assault rifles for militia service and keep them at home, yet little crime exists there. Sen. Bradley responded that the Swiss "are prettydull."

For those who think that target shooting is more fun than golf, however, Switzerland is anything but "dull." By car or train, you see shooting ranges everywhere, but few golf courses. If there is a Schuetzenfest (shooting festival) in town, you will find rifles slung on hat racks in restaurants, and you will encounter men and women, old and young, walking, biking and taking the tram with rifles over their shoulders, to and from the range. They stroll right past the police station and no one bats an eye. (Try this in the U.S., and a SWAT Team might do you in.)Tourists*especially those from Japan, where guns are banned to all but thepolice*think it*s a revolution. But shooting is the national sport, and the backbone of the national defense as well. More per capita firepower exists in Switzerland than in any other place in the world, yet it is one of the safest places to be. According to the U.N. International Study on Firearm Regulation, England*s 1994 homicide rate was 1.4 (9% involving firearms), and the robbery rate 116, per 100,000 population. In the United States, the homicide rate was 9.0 (70% involving firearms), and the robbery rate 234, per 100,000. England has strict gun control laws, ergo, the homicide rate is lower than in the U.S. However, such comparisons can be dangerous: In 1900, when England had no gun controls, the homicide rate was only 1.0 per 100,000. Moreover, using data through 1996, the U.S. Department of Justice study "Crime and Justice" concluded that in England the robbery rate was 1.4 times higher, the assault rate was 2.3 times higher, and the burglary rate was 1.7 times higher than in the U.S. This suggests that lawfully armed citizens in the U.S. deter such crimes. Only the murder and rape rates in the U.S. were higher than in England. The small number of violent predators who commit most of these crimes in the U.S. have little trouble arming themselves unlawfully. The U.N. study omits mention of Switzerland, which is awash in guns and has substantially lower murder and robbery rates than England, where most guns are banned.

Here are the figures: The Swiss Federal Police Office reports that in 1997 there were 87 intentional homicides and 102 attempted homicides in the entire country. Some 91 of these 189 murders and attempts involved firearms. With its population of seven million (including 1.2 million foreigners), Switzerland had a homicide rate of 1.2 per 100,000. There were 2,498 robberies (and attempted robberies), of which 546 involved firearms, resulting in a robbery rate of 36 per 100,000. Almost half of these crimes were committed by non-resident foreigners, whom locals call "criminal tourists." Sometimes, the data sound too good to be true. In 1993, not a single armed robbery was reported in Geneva. No one seems to be looking at the Swiss example in the U.S., however. Congress is stampeding to pass additional firearm restrictions in response to the events of April 20, when two students used guns and bombs to murder a dozen classmates and a teacher in Littleton, Colorado. Yet in 1996, a man who legally owned guns under England*s strict regulations went on a rampage, murdering 16 children and a teacher in Dunblane, Scotland. Parliament then banned all handguns and most rifles. But there have been no school massacres in Switzerland, where guns and kids mix freely. At shooting matches, bicycles aplenty are parked outside. Inside the firing shelter, the competitors pay 12-year-olds tips to keep score. The 16-year-olds shoot rifles with men and women of all ages. In fact, the tourist brochure "Zurich News" recommends September*s Knabenschiessen (boy*s shooting contest) as a must-see: "The oldest Zurich tradition . . .

consistsof a shooting contest at the Albisguetli (range) for 12 to 16 year-old boys and girls and a colorful three-day fun-fair." The event has been held since 1657, and attracts thousands of teenage participants and spectators. While many shoot for sport, all males aged 20 to 42 are required by militia system regulation to keep rifles and/or pistols at home. In addition, gun shops abound. Yet firearms are rarely used in crime. Homicide is tied to a willingness to resort to violence, not the mere presence of guns. The prevalence of firearms in the home and the participation of youth in shooting matches bind youth to adults and discourages a generation gap. By contrast, homicide rates are highest in the underdeveloped countries, many of which ban private firearm possession. In some, private murder does not compare to the genocidal murder committed by governments against their unarmed subjects.

In America, firearms take on a sinister reputation from the nightly news and violent movies. But in Switzerland, firearms symbolize a wholesome, community activity. The typical weekend shooting festival brings out the entire family. Beside the range is a huge tent where scores or hundreds of people are eating, drinking, and socializing. With cantonal and rifle club banners fluttering in the wind, the melody of rifle fire blends with Alpine music and cow bells. Since its founding in 1291, Switzerland has depended on an armed populace for its defense. William Tell used a crossbow not only to shoot the apple from his son*s head, but also to kill the tyrant Gessler. For centuries, the cantonal republic defeated the powerful armies of the European monarchs. Machiavelli wrote in 1532: "The Swiss are well armed and enjoy great freedom." This coincidence has not escaped the notice of those who oppose liberty. Monarchist philosopher Jean Bodin, writing in 1606, denounced free speech and arms possession by commoners. Subjects must be disarmed to prevent democratic sedition, he said. The Swiss proved, Bodin wrongly averred, that arms bearing was "the cause of an infinite number of murders." The Swiss militia model, however, preserved democracy and held Europe*s despots at bay. In fact, it inspired the rebellious American colonists. John Adams praised the democratic Swiss Cantons, where every man was entitled to vote on laws and to bear arms. Patrick Henry, another American Founding Father, lauded the Swiss for maintaining their independence without "a mighty and splendid President" or a standing army.

The Swiss influence is clear in the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which provides: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." Today, it has become fashionable to hate this orphan of the Bill of Rights. However, a quick glance at history shows that tyrannical governments kill far more than do private criminals.

But first, governments must disarm their victims. In 1933, the Nazis seized power via massive search-and-seizure operations for firearms against "Communists," i.e., all political opponents. In 1938, during the Night of the Broken Glass, they disarmed the Jews. When the Nazis occupied Europe in 1939-41, they proclaimed the death penalty for any person who failed to surrender all firearms within 24 hours.

There may be various reasons why the Nazis did not invade Switzerland, but one of those reasons is that every Swiss man had a rifle at home. For this we have no better record than the Nazi invasion plans, which stated that, because of the Swiss shooting skills, Switzerland would be difficult to conquer and pacify. European countries occupied by the Nazis had strict gun controls before the war, and the registration lists facilitated confiscation of firearms and the execution of their owners. By being able to keep out of both world wars in part through the dissuasive factor of an armed populace, Switzerland demonstrates that civilian firearm possession may prevent large numbers of deaths and even genocide. The Holocaust never came to Switzerland, the Jewish population of which was armed just like their fellow citizens. In the rest of Europe, what if there had been not just one, but two, three, or many Warsaw Ghetto Uprisings?Traditionally, the Swiss Cantons had few firearm regulations. The first federal firearms law was recently enacted. Certain firearm purchases require a permit, and others do not. On retirement, every soldier may keep his rifle or pistol. Surplus assault rifles may be purchased by any Swiss citizen from the Military Department. The bottom line is one of attitude. Populations with training in civic virtue, though armed, do not experience sensational massacres or high crime rates. Indeed, armed citizens deter crime. Switzerland fits this mold. Similarly, America*s lawful "gun culture" is peaceful. Sadly, some of its subcultures are not.

From The Wall Street Journal Europe.

[Octavius Hite]

OK. yes i am a commie pinko bleeding heart liberal but this plan is quite stupid since we have quite restrictive gun laws as it is. Its clear Martin is just blowing smoke. What we need (and I posted this elsewhere) is mandatory minimums for people caught with a firearm without a FAC and without a reasonable reason (i.e. going to the range or hunting). I would be happy with 10 years (no parole) automatically for anyone caught carrying a weapon in this manner. As for the recent rash of gun violence in T.dot well its quite clear since almost everyone was a black male that clearly the city/province/feds have failed to address social problems and other such things. As for the promise it will help the Liberals where they need it most Toronto and Ontario. People in Toronto don't really need or have handguns so it will easily win votes, the rest of Canada will just shrug it off and know that it is more political BS.

[Hyalucent]

This handgun ban is just a Liberal ploy to draw attention away from Gomery, by having voters focus on their failed firearms policies.

[Wrench]

[Imbroglio]

[Octavius Hite]

Ah yes, and you wonder why the rest of Canada has no problem taking away your guns! Nutjobs! And why was my idea bad? If a group of guys are rolling around a Toronto suburb (or an Edmonton suburb) in a car with .45 handgun they should all be in jail. No Canadian should nor needs to have a firearm in his car or on his person without a legit reason. Going from place to place or going hunting is fine but noone should be packing a handgun a the grocery store or gas station or anywhere else for that matter and you know what my opinion is the MAJORITY in Canada you whackjobs with your subtle threats are in the minority and I thought my idea was pretty good.

[Wrench]

[The Man known as The Man]

VI-yes, American presidnets have been and are whacky, but their system is inherently superior to Canadian federalism, notwithstanding the Boc Quebecois.


Term limits for Presidents-think of how far better off Canada would be if Jean Chretien had been limited to 2 terms.

The division of powers-and you addressed this yourself in the Vancouver Center Svend Robinson-Frey race-choosing either candidate or party-with the division of powers, in both the USA and yes I will say it, FRANCE, it's not either/or-there are the constant cranks talking about the need for proportional representation, but that's not good enough as far as I am concerned.

As far as Svend-I wanted him to win the NDP leadership-but now, his future is behind him!