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seethetraffic

Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Location: Seoul

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:43 pm Post subject:

joe_doufu wrote:

seethetraffic wrote:

One must necessarily have a restricted view of freedom to view Singapore as a truly free country- especially if one views political freedom as an essential component of freedom.

I guess you've never been there. Economic freedom is the essential freedom, and Singaporeans have more of that than Americans (who pay about half their earnings in taxesl). Singapore is a nice place to live. The USA isn't as nice.

Quote:

It is troubling that you have found some way in your mind to imagine Nazi Germany as a democracy. I think most people rightly see that era as anything but a democracy

Only Nazi apologists like you perpetuate the story that the entire nation of Germany was conquered by one crazy man. Democracy means "people power" and the people of Germany chose Hitler. They elected him, and none of the foolishness Germany did in the 1930's to 1944 would have been possible without their complicity. It was true democracy in the sense of mob rule -- the thing that America's founding fathers warned of when they decided not to go with democracy.

So under your theory, people "choose" their dictators and are responsible for what they do? You are entirely to forgiving of dictators.

seethetraffic

Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Location: Seoul

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:46 pm Post subject:

meant to say "too" forgiving also - mob rule= true democracy??? I don't think so.

antoniothegreat

Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Location: Yangpyeong

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:18 am Post subject:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

Quote:

but moderate Republicans were the ones that made it popular and sold it to the public in their "Contract with America."

Those were NOT moderate Republicans who did the Contract with America thing. The moderate Republicans are on the EPA's endangered list because there are so few of them.

Do you remember the most popular song in Washington on Jan. 20, 2001? It's the best short course in GOP fiscal policy I know. And so blatant.

(They even stole the tune [Happy Days Are Here Again] from the Dems. Talk about adding insult to injury.)

So long sad times
So long bad times
We��re rid of Bill at last
Howdy gay times
Cloudy gray times
You are now a thing of the past

Spending days are here again
Bill��s gone and we can spend again
So let's sing a song of cheer again
Hu��s in Beijing so we��ll spend again

Altogether shout it now
Borrow from Beijing
And spend it now!
So let's tell the world about it now
Clinton��s gone and we can spend again

Fiscal sanity is gone
There'll be no more from now on
From now on...

Spending days are here again
The National debt can soar again
So, let��s let the Chinese pay someday
Spending times
Spending nights
Spending days
Are here again!

cute, but that is about it...

if it wasnt the moderate Republicans, then who was it?

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:46 am Post subject:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

[

Quote:

"a Lewinsky"

In future, that is likely to be the one event most closely associated in the minds of people when they hear or see the word "Clinton".

(1) Do you really think high school history textbooks are going to add the phrase 'b job' to their vocabulary list and each spring teachers are going to do a unit on the sexual escapades of Bill and Monica? You are naive.

The phrase will be 'sexual misconduct' and no one but history majors are going to know what all the cigar jokes are about.

(2) It is just wishful thinking on your part to think kids are going to know more. It's been 6 years already. I'll bet you any amount of money you want that if you walk down the halls of any American high school right now and ask why Clinton was impeached, #1) the majority will look blankly at you and say, "What does 'impeached' mean?"; #2) if you do run in to one who remembers from Andrew Johnson, they won't know the specific charges. The seniors this year were in early middle school when it happened and I highly doubt that many families discussed oral sex at the supper table with 12 year olds; and #3) a large majority thought the Republicans were over-reaching at the time. They are not going to pass on their memories of a sex scandal to their kids. They are going to say something like, "I miss Clinton. Fiscal responsibility, peace, a budget surplus and international respect."

"A lewinsky" is already a joke on some TV shows.

(1) You are the one that is naive if you believe kids depend on high school textbooks for learning or hearing about things. "Sexual misconduct" Yeah sure kids aren't going to want to know about THAT.

Kids are a lot more mature and hear and understand a lot more than you give them credit for. I'd take that bet in a heartbeat, but unfortunately I am not in America. I've had KOREAN students that knew about it, and that was years later.

joe_doufu

Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:34 am Post subject:

antoniothegreat wrote:

joe_doufu wrote:

antoniothegreat wrote:

Bush II-basics of economics, when the economy is down, tax less and spend more. yes, this drives up the defecit, and that MUST be paid back later (when a booming period occurs, like the 90's). IF Bush did not tax less and spend more, our economy would be so much worse.

Lowering the tax burden (it is a burden) during hard times is basic economics, but increasing spending is definitely debateable. It boosts GDP a certain amount by buying products from American producers, but there is some question to whether this is the best way to boost the economy. Remember those are taxpayers' dollars -- did we really pay taxes to the government to have them "waste" them to boost the GDP? I don't know about that. I would favor a government that shrinks when times are tough.

you are assuming the money just disappears after it is spent. the reason it is important is that money then goes to businesses, who pass it on as wages to employees, who then spend it, and and economy gets back going.

I'm not assuming anything. Wisely spent, it can help the recovery. Whether the government spends it wisely, and whether it's the mandate of the government to do so, is debateable. You said it was "basic economics" meaning there's no question... this is certainly an area that can be discussed, not like the first part of your "basic economics" equation which is pretty much universally agreed-upon.

joe_doufu

Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:55 am Post subject:

Quote:

So under your theory, people "choose" their dictators and are responsible for what they do?

You repeatedly put words and "theories" into my mouth. I said no such thing.

Quote:

You attempt to diminish democracy by attaching its name to Nazi germany

You keep trying to convince to forum that I'm "against" democracy, but I'm not. I use Nazi Germany as an example because you and I all know about Hitler and we know he was democratically elected by a nation who wanted him in power.. There are several apt examples from the recent history of African atrocities and war crimes, but honestly I can't keep the names of the various African dictators straight in my head. Many of them were elected, and would serve equally well as examples of my point.

I'm not against democracy. I'm trying to make the point that democracy is no guarantee of freedom or prosperity. People who live in free countries generally live happy lives. Democracy does not = a Free Country. There are many countries that have both. They are called "liberal democracies" and are defined by the presence of a Bill of Rights... see the book I mentioned, or this from the Wikipedia:

wikipedia wrote:

Democracies may be "liberal," where fundamental rights of individuals in the minority are protected by law, or they may be "illiberal" where they are not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

There are also some Free Countries that don't have democracy -- Hong Kong and Singapore are the two best examples. I think this discussion started when I said that HK was a nice place to live, which is a fact I've observed, and which you've tried to deny based on your theory. There are in fact no industrialized nations that have true democracy (mob rule) though the state of California gets closer all the time.

seethetraffic wrote:

mob rule= true democracy???
I don't think so.

Then you are wrong. Democracy means "people power" and without limits to the democracy, such as a Bill of Rights, or a restriction of power to elected representatives, that means total power to the 51%. AKA mob rule gradually developing into Nazi Germany. Mark my words, the Bill of Rights makes the USA less democratic, and we should thank our lucky stars for it.
.

joe_doufu

Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:14 am Post subject:

Just got this as a PM from seethetraffic:

seethetraffic wrote:

you don't trust the voters much do you?

Hey man. I'm just sticking up for common sense and (apparently) uncommon knowledge on this thread. It's not some kind of silly campaign for me as it is for you. I have no interest in some kind of hate mail or flame war. You've been demonstrated to be wrong... get over it, don't take it personally.

seethetraffic

Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Location: Seoul

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:23 am Post subject:

joe_doufu wrote:

Quote:

So under your theory, people "choose" their dictators and are responsible for what they do?

You repeatedly put words and "theories" into my mouth. I said no such thing.

Quote:

You attempt to diminish democracy by attaching its name to Nazi germany

wikipedia wrote:

Democracies may be "liberal," where fundamental rights of individuals in the minority are protected by law, or they may be "illiberal" where they are not.

seethetraffic wrote:

mob rule= true democracy???
I don't think so.

The Bill of Rights does not make the USA less democratic. You give the American people too little credit. The Bill of Rights is only undemocratic if you believe that the majority of our citizens don't support it.

Sorry, "mob rule" conjures up too many images of the mafia (an organized, small minority of individuals who attempt to run businesses without oversight and without paying taxes). It may fly in the benevolent dictatorship that is the Vatican City/country and it may still fly in Maine or in Sicily but all democracies (the last time I checked) have the consent of the governed and the only ones that went unchecked for any length of time became something other than democracies.

antoniothegreat

Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Location: Yangpyeong

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:16 am Post subject:

seethetraffic wrote:

joe_doufu wrote:

Quote:

So under your theory, people "choose" their dictators and are responsible for what they do?

You repeatedly put words and "theories" into my mouth. I said no such thing.

Quote:

You attempt to diminish democracy by attaching its name to Nazi germany

wikipedia wrote:

Democracies may be "liberal," where fundamental rights of individuals in the minority are protected by law, or they may be "illiberal" where they are not.

seethetraffic wrote:

mob rule= true democracy???
I don't think so.

i think what is meant by mob rule is tyranny of the majority. meaning, a majority of voters use their voting power to tyrannize the minority, which is possible in an unrestricted democracy. an example of this would be if everyone that had an income under 100k/year voted to tax everyone else at 80% and give it to themselves. the majority could vote and approve this, and thus tyrannizing the minority of the population. The Bill of Rights gurantess some of this tyranny cannot happen, for example white americans cannot vote to not allow black americans to vote...
surely this isnt needed, but the BoR guarantees it cannot happen.

or maybe mob rule means creating an aristocracy??? then i could be way off...

antoniothegreat

Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Location: Yangpyeong

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:21 am Post subject:

joe_doufu wrote:

antoniothegreat wrote:

joe_doufu wrote:

antoniothegreat wrote:

i didnt think it was debatable. because it cannot be spen unwisely. the New Deal inthe Depression created countless pointless jobs. new construction jobs popped up building roads from the middle of nowhere to the end of nowhere. why? to create jobs. any money spent will add money to the economy and either create jobs or add income to a previous job.

about having a mandate, if an administration is elected after a hit on the economy, i think having a mandate isnt important, it is doing what is best for the country/economy that become important. if after a depression a low spending administration is elected, well i am not sure. you have the will of the people vs the good of the country. what wins???

joe_doufu

Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:47 am Post subject:

antoniothegreat wrote:

Exactly. It's not just the Bill of Rights that prevents it... the BoR is just a piece of paper. It's that we've established a system where people *trust* the piece of paper and the government is *loyal* to it even despite their own selfish interests. That's what's so amazing.

joe_doufu

Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:55 am Post subject:

antoniothegreat wrote:

because it cannot be spen unwisely.

Er, when my parents helped me with my late credit card bills, they made me promise never to take advice from somebody who said "it's impossible for this spending to be unwise"! Wink

Quote:

the New Deal inthe Depression created countless pointless jobs. new construction jobs popped up building roads from the middle of nowhere to the end of nowhere. why? to create jobs. any money spent will add money to the economy...

OK, but you see that basically amounts to a wealth transfer from the wealthy to the poor, and even across time, from the hopefully wealthy of tomorrow to the poor of today. The goal is improving the lives of the poor and generally improving GDP. Some people might ask, why do we care if GDP grows, if it means more tax burden on us (the wealthy/employed)? Some of the poor might not refuse easy money but might regret it later if it means too much of a debt burden in the following years. There's something to be said for reducing the tax burden significantly to encourage the wealthy to invest and create jobs themselves. Every situation is different, I don't think there's one right answer.

antoniothegreat

Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Location: Yangpyeong

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:20 pm Post subject:

joe_doufu wrote:

antoniothegreat wrote:

because it cannot be spen unwisely.

Er, when my parents helped me with my late credit card bills, they made me promise never to take advice from somebody who said "it's impossible for this spending to be unwise"! Wink

Quote:

ok, i just want to be clear, i am saying this is best for getting out of a depression, and avoiding a depression, not for regular times. just to be clear.
i dont think it is a transfer of money from rich to poor. it is a transfer of money from the future to the present. the money is borrowed, not taxed. sure, in the future it will be taxed, but that isnt the point. the point is where there is less money circulating, it is better to borrow, even at the cost of raising national debt, to add more money in circulation now.

about wasteful spending, two things. first, spending between your credit card and the government has some similairities, but is so different. second, yes, some spending is better than others, but again, the point is to add money to circulation, so as long as the government is putting it into domestic companies, it helps the economy. i am sure certain areas are more beneficial than others (industry vs agriculture vs service) but i honestly lack the knowledge to go that far in detail...

and i agree with your mob-rule and the american government's and people's will to follow the Bill of Rights.

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