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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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 Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:39 am Post subject: |
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Professor beaten; attackers cite KU creationism class
Associated Press
LAWRENCE - A professor whose planned course on creationism and
intelligent design was canceled after he sent e-mails deriding
Christian conservatives was hospitalized Monday after what appeared to
be a roadside beating.
University of Kansas religious studies professor Paul Mirecki said
that the two men who beat him made references to the class that was to
be offered for the first time this spring.
Originally called "Special Topics in Religion: Intelligent Design,
Creationism and other Religious Mythologies," the course was canceled
last week at Mirecki's request.
The class was added after the Kansas State Board of Education decided
to include more criticism of evolution in science standards for
elementary and secondary students.
"I didn't know them," Mirecki said of his assailants, "but I'm sure
they knew me."
One recent e-mail from Mirecki to members of a student organization
referred to religious conservatives as "fundies," and said a course
describing intelligent design as mythology would be a "nice slap in
their big fat face." Mirecki has apologized for those comments.
Lt. Kari Wempe, a spokeswoman for the Douglas County Sheriff's
Department, said a deputy was dispatched to Lawrence Memorial Hospital
after receiving a call around 7 a.m. regarding a battery.
She said Mirecki reported he was attacked around 6:40 a.m. in rural
Douglas County south of Lawrence. Mirecki told the Lawrence
Journal-World that he was driving to breakfast when he noticed the men
tailgating him in a pickup truck.
"I just pulled over hoping they would pass, and then they pulled up
real close behind," he said. "They got out, and I made the mistake of
getting out."
He said the men beat him on the head, shoulders and back with their
fists, and possibly a metal object.
Wempe said Mirecki drove himself to the hospital after the attack.
Mirecki told the student newspaper, the University Daily Kansan, that
he spent between three and four hours at the hospital. He said his
injuries included a broken tooth.
"I'm mostly shaken up, and I got some bruises and sore spots," he told
the Lawrence Journal-World.
Wempe said Mirecki described the suspects as two white men between 30
and 40 years of age. One of the men was described as wearing a red,
visorlike ball cap and wool gloves. Mirecki said the men left in a
large pickup.
Wempe said the department would investigate "every aspect," but
couldn't discuss specifics.
Andrew Stangl, president of the Society for Open Minded Atheists and
Agnostics at the university, described the attack as "bizarre and
terrifying." He said Mirecki, who is the group's faculty adviser, was
adamant that the beating was related to the recently canceled course.
"That absolutely shocked me," he said, "because people don't do that
in a civilized society."
State Sen. Kay O'Connor, a Mirecki critic, said there is no excuse for
someone physically assaulting the professor -- regardless of their
politics.
"I have zero tolerance for thugs," she said. "There is never an excuse
to behave in such a manner. This was just thugs. They used a flimsy
excuse, if they had one, to behave as thugs. They can talk about the
ID (intelligent design) course if they want to, but that's not an
excuse."
(c) 2005 Wichita Eagle and wire service sources. All Rights Reserved.
http://www.kansas.com
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How's that for warm Christian love? |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:18 am Post subject: |
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And those silly Christian muggers think they are different from the Muslims blowing people up in Iraq:
Great is Great! God is Good! And I'm gonna kick yer arse!!!
Great is Great! God is Good! Where's my IED?
Allujah Akbar! (Or whatever...) |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
http://www.impactchristianbooks.com/products.asp?Submit=GO!&Author=bonnke
What part of this don't you understand?
During a dramatic journey to a hospital in Owerri, Nigeria, he lost all life signs and was later pronounced dead by two different medical staff in two different hospitals. The latter wrote a Medical report and commissioned the corpse to the mortuary.
If you actually bought the video, you would see the report of the doctor and the medical evidence. |
Do you have ANY IDEA how many people are declared dead only to wake up in the morgue or somewhere later with zero intervention from any faith healer? It's called a near-death experience. Again, give me something *factual and scientifically irrefutable* that shows a *causal* connection between God and near-death experiences.
Ah, nevermind. Your participation in this thread thus far shows that you actually have a very poor understanding of the scientific process. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:52 am Post subject: |
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He was dead for 4 days, but I guess for you it would have to be????? How many days?
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| Ah, nevermind. Your participation in this thread thus far shows that you actually have a very poor understanding of the scientific process. |
Really...so far you can explain the following to defend evolution,
1. What happened before the big band,
2. How did we go from inorganic to organic,
3. Why there is absolutely no evidence for a fossil record that would prove macroevolution,
On the opposite side, you can't elaborate to why,
1. There are over 29 prophecies that came true to the life of Christ,
2. The accuracy of the scriptures verified by geological evidence,
3. The evidence that supports the flood, a young earth and intelligent design.
Regardless, we will see who is true in the future.
Either Jesus Christ will return for His beautiful bride
or
We all sing "Only here for a good time" and enter in the dark abyss.
Those who are taking their chances on the dark abyss are either very courageous or very foolish. That's quite the chance especially when the evidence isn't in your favor.
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
| He was dead for 4 days, but I guess for you it would have to be????? How many days? |
According to WHOM? Why do you keep ignoring that? You get Johns Hopkins, the NIH, etc., to sign off on it, then come talk to me. DON'T ask anyone to accept as scientific fact some biased doctor who is most likely on a payroll or a nut saying this happened. Give us PROOF, not religious testimony.
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| Quote: |
| Ah, nevermind. Your participation in this thread thus far shows that you actually have a very poor understanding of the scientific process. |
Really...so far you can explain the following to defend evolution,
1. What happened before the big band, |
Yes. Jazz, Blues, Dxieland, spirituals, Baroque, Classical....
| Quote: |
2. How did we go from inorganic to organic,
3. Why there is absolutely no evidence for a fossil record that would prove macroevolution, |
How are any of th three relevant? What have I said I can prove?? Nothing. What can you prove or disprove is the question. I have not said evolution is fact. It is a work in progress that I am sure will be established as fact, but unlike you, I do not claim facts prior to them being in evidence.
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On the opposite side, you can't elaborate to why,
1. There are over 29 prophecies that came true to the life of Christ,
2. The accuracy of the scriptures verified by geological evidence,
3. The evidence that supports the flood, a young earth and intelligent design. |
Why would I need to? It's fiction. You want me to prove Moby Dick really existed? There may well be records, but your assumption of causation is where you fail. The records were made after the fact, not prior, which obviously allows for shaping yor yarn to fit the historical reality.
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| Regardless, we will see who is true in the future. |
I assume you mean correct?
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Either Jesus Christ will return for His beautiful bride
or We all sing "Only here for a good time" and enter in the dark abyss.
Those who are taking their chances on the dark abyss are either very courageous or very foolish. That's quite the chance especially when the evidence isn't in your favor.
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What I wouldn't give for even a smidgen of true evidence of God, or any god. The problem is that you call relgious fervor evidence and I do not. Beleive me, precious few here or anywhere begrudge you your beliefs, it's your intended violation of the Constitution that is at issue here. Why the hell can't you just ask fo a religious studies course to be added to the curriculum and leave it at that? Pretty damned insecure if you ask me. "No!! We can't let them say dinosaurs were real!!! They might not BELIEVE!!!"
Ridiculous. If my faith were so small, I dare say I should be ashamed of myself. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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Five Eagles, how can one test whether or a species has macroevolved within a given time? In order to do that, one would have to mate two organisms which did not live at the same time.
I heard a Creationist speak of the eophippus, which was a small horse the size of a cat which lived at the time of the dinosaurs. The Creationist said that one could mate an eophippus with a horse living today and sire offspring.
How does the Creationist know that?
Anyway, I don't know whether we could mate with Neanderthals or not.
Why is that question important? |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| According to WHOM? Why do you keep ignoring that? You get Johns Hopkins, the NIH, etc., to sign off on it, then come talk to me. DON'T ask anyone to accept as scientific fact some biased doctor who is most likely on a payroll or a nut saying this happened. Give us PROOF, not religious testimony. |
Like I have said before, it takes 1 witness for it to stand up in a court of law. Well, there wwe two witnesses at the hospital, both medical professionals. Witnesses in the whole community all give testimony to the event.
Why should their faith bias what they have seen? Could it be because they are black, you don't accept their testimony? To say that they are not credible witness's because of their religion is extremely intolerant.
Regardless, I can see your point in wanting a credible source as John Hopkins or some other "great institution" to stamp its approval. However, since you can see the bias of the religious nuts, can you see the bias of the scientific community? What would they have to gain from putting their faith in God? Where would they make their money if God was actually true and healing existed. Do you think the pharmaceutical companies would jump in and say, "lets actually help people" or lets make our stock portfollios grow a half billion more?
Regardless, studies by Duke university have shown that prayer increases healing
http://www.siib.org/Downloads/Sciencespiritual.pdf
It not overwhelming, but it is a start. It takes time for grass root movements to gain momentum, especially when there are billions of dollars at stake.
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Yes. Jazz, Blues, Dxieland, spirituals, Baroque, Classical.... |
Good one.
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| How are any of three relevant? What have I said I can prove?? Nothing. What can you prove or disprove is the question. I have not said evolution is fact. It is a work in progress that I am sure will be established as fact, but unlike you, I do not claim facts prior to them being in evidence. |
Why are these relevant? It is because it shows you have faith. Not only faith, but you have great faith that one day evolution will show that this can happen. Which is a great thing.
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| Why would I need to? It's fiction. You want me to prove Moby *beep* really existed? There may well be records, but your assumption of causation is where you fail. The records were made after the fact, not prior, which obviously allows for shaping yor yarn to fit the historical reality. |
This is where we differ. In how we view historical and analytical data.
It has been shown over and over again that the OT books were written at the time they were written. If this is in case true, (because there are always naysayers) than it would show there is over 29 prophecies about the life of Jesus Christ. Written before he walked the earth.
The chances of this happening are over 1 in a billion.
Notice the difference. Think about this.
You believe in something that has the odds overwhelming against it. Not impossible, but against.
I believe in something where the odds are overwhelming for it.
This is why I gave you William Dembski's formula on the design inference, but of course it got looked over. Why?
So The breakdown,
The big banG..........................1 in a billion chances of happening,
Inorganic to Organic................1 in a billion chances of happening,
The m-evolution of organisms...1 in a billion chances of happening,
(This only the big stuff.)
Whereas,
29 prophecies about the life of Christ....................Almost Impossible,
the amount of intelligent design in the universe......Endless,
The evidence that supports the bible.....................Increasing,
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| Beleive me, precious few here or anywhere begrudge you your beliefs, it's your intended violation of the Constitution that is at issue here. |
Don't patronize me with your arrogance. Would I be better pleasing in your sight if I sat at home and sang kumbiya and watch this world burn because of bunk philosophies? This type of attitude demoralizes more people than anything else and it is something I hate to do. Compromise.
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| Why the hell can't you just ask fo a religious studies course to be added to the curriculum and leave it at that? Pretty damned insecure if you ask me. "No!! We can't let them say dinosaurs were real!!! They might not BELIEVE!!!" |
This is about righteousness and how it exalts a nation. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. This is about the truth and allowing it to prosper here on earth.
By the way, in the bible, it talks about Dinosaurs...
read Job 41.
You might be surprised at everything the bible has to say if you read it...
Last edited by fiveeagles on Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| tomato wrote: |
| Five Eagles, how can one test whether or a species has macroevolved within a given time? In order to do that, one would have to mate two organisms which did not live at the same time. |
That's the point I am trying to make. How can you? So then how will you ever know unless you can repeat it in a lab? Macroevolution doesn't have one case test of evolution. Not that i know of. They have tried to breed fruit flies until they are of another species. Hasn't worked as of yet. They always become dead end species.
As for your other question. Unfortunately, you won't find more flakier people than Christians. Your article about supposedly Christians beating up other Christians is only one example of a long dark list of Christianity gone wrong.
Regardless, theories are not bad as long as they are not embraced as law. It's good to have questions. I have no problems with evolution being taught in schools as long as other supported theories can be taught beside it. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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on dinosaurs
I looked up Job 41.
I saw that it had to do with Leviathan.
In an ancient non-Biblical scripture, we are told that God made a sea monster called the Leviathan, which has a shiny skin.
We are also told that God will someday destroy the Leviathan and spread his skin over the city of Jerusalem as a canopy.
Of course, I can't disprove this, because it is impossible to disprove a prophesy which takes place at an indefinite date in the future.
Anyway, Five Eagles, why do you think this chapter proves that the authors of the Bible knew about dinosaurs?
on prophesies
This is the first I heard about Jesus fulfilling 29 prophesies in the Old Testament.
Where can I check up on this?
Are you referring to the prophesies of Isaiah?
I realize that the prophesies of Isaiah allows for brilliant music in Handel's Messiah, but I don't see how any of those prophesies connect with the New Testament.
When was Jesus ever called "The Everlasting Father"? According to the New Testament, he told his followers to pray to "Our Father, who art in Heaven."
When was Jesus ever called "The Prince of Peace"? According to the New Testament, he "did not come to bring peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34) |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
| Quote: |
| According to WHOM? Why do you keep ignoring that? You get Johns Hopkins, the NIH, etc., to sign off on it, then come talk to me. DON'T ask anyone to accept as scientific fact some biased doctor who is most likely on a payroll or a nut saying this happened. Give us PROOF, not religious testimony. |
Like I have said before, it takes 1 witness for it to stand up in a court of law. Well, there wwe two witnesses at the hospital, both medical professionals. Witnesses in the whole community all give testimony to the event. |
Yo did not just say such an ignorant thing. This is why I stopped debating you before. This statement begs insulting. It truly does.
| fiveeagles wrote: |
| Why should their faith bias what they have seen? Could it be because they are black, you don't accept their testimony? |
Do not, I repeat, NOT ever say such a thing to me ever again. Do you have any idea how much credibility you just lost? I did't even know they were Black, you #$%#$.
| fiveeagles wrote: |
| To say that they are not credible witness's because of their religion is extremely intolerant. |
That is *not* what I said. I said you offered no PROOF. Not only is it entirely possible they are lying, deluded, on drugs, psychotic, etc., etc., but them SAYING SO is not in any way considered proof. It is TESTIMONY, not PROOF. How ca you claim to ahve knowledge of science and to have *any* degree of intellignce and not understand that?
| fiveeagles wrote: |
| Regardless, I can see your point in wanting a credible source as John Hopkins or some other "great institution" to stamp its approval. However, since you can see the bias of the religious nuts, can you see the bias of the scientific community? What would they have to gain from putting their faith in God? |
Jesus H. Christ.... a very significant portion of the scientists you just derided are believers.
| Quote: |
Regardless, studies by Duke university have shown that prayer increases healing
http://www.siib.org/Downloads/Sciencespiritual.pdf
It not overwhelming, but it is a start. It takes time for grass root movements to gain momentum, especially when there are billions of dollars at stake. |
Yes, and so do the power of positive thinking, meditation, good health habits, having supportive family, etc., etc., etc. Get it???
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| Why would I need to? It's fiction. You want me to prove Moby *beep* really existed? There may well be records, but your assumption of causation is where you fail. The records were made after the fact, not prior, which obviously allows for shaping yor yarn to fit the historical reality. |
This is where we differ. In how we view historical and analytical data.
It has been shown over and over again that the OT books were written at the time they were written. If this is in case true, (because there are always naysayers) than it would show there is over 29 prophecies about the life of Jesus Christ. Written before he walked the earth.
The chances of this happening are over 1 in a billion. |
Aaaaarrrggghh.... Whether or not you believe the "prophecies" about Christ were even prophecies, let alone about him, and *not to mention whether or not they have or have not been fulfilled*, is even more subjective than the original argument of God's existence! And you use it as proof of Christ? Are you joking?
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Notice the difference. Think about this.
You believe in something that has the odds overwhelming against it. Not impossible, but against. |
And you're deluded. I asked you once: why and HOW did the dinosaurs exist? You've never answered.
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| I believe in something where the odds are overwhelming for it. |
BS. You ahve no idea what "odds" means if you would say such a ridiculous thing.
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| This is why I gave you William Dembski's formula on the design inference, but of course it got looked over. Why? |
It wasn't overlooked it was dismissed as irrelevant. You continue to confuse unlikely with impossible. Ridiculous. The odds don't matter!!!
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29 prophecies about the life of Christ....................Almost Impossible,
the amount of intelligent design in the universe......Endless,
The evidence that supports the bible.....................Increasing, |
According to whom???? Again, you say so, so it is? To my knowledge, if the the existence of Christ has not bee proben, how the frick can you say prophecies about a non-existent entity have come true??
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| Beleive me, precious few here or anywhere begrudge you your beliefs, it's your intended violation of the Constitution that is at issue here. |
Don't patronize me with your arrogance. |
I didn't patronize you. I stated the posiion clearly. How can you possibly feel patronized by that statement? It makes no sense. And I repeat it your faith is not issue, nor is religion, it is the issue of claimin religion as science, and undoing te separation of church and state that is at issue.
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| Would I be better pleasing in your sight if I sat at home and sang kumbiya and watch this world burn because of bunk philosophies? This type of attitude demoralizes more people than anything else and it is something I hate to do. Compromise. |
I did not judge your faith nor you. I have shown you are not a clear or logical thinker.
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| Why the hell can't you just ask fo a religious studies course to be added to the curriculum and leave it at that? Pretty damned insecure if you ask me. "No!! We can't let them say dinosaurs were real!!! They might not BELIEVE!!!" |
This is about righteousness and how it exalts a nation. |
WHOSE RIGHTEOUSNESS? By taht statement EVERY RELIGION MUST BE GRANTED IT'S SAY IN THE SCIENCE CLASS. Have yo ANY idea how many creations stories/myths/fantasies there are out there? On this basis of simple logical impossibility in presenting the religious in science alone - you'd spend the entire semester noting each flippin' story!! - you should realize it is a foolish agenda.
Your place is in the pulpit, not the classroom.
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Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. This is about the truth and allowing it to prosper here on earth.
By the way, in the bible, it talks about Dinosaurs...
read Job 41.
You might be surprised at everything the bible has to say if you read it...
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Answer the question. How were they created? Why were they created? And why are thy no longer here? By what processes? |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:41 am Post subject: |
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Ok, bro, lets just take a breather for awhile.
This is obviously a contentious subject, so I am just going to let it go.
I am sorry about the black comment, I shouldn't have made it.  It seems like you are purposely twisting my comments to create your own argument. I guess it really easy to misunderstand people on this browser. |
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Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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Sanity returns ....
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'Intelligent design' teaching ban
Charles Darwin's theory of evolution is widely accepted by scientists
A court in the US has ruled against the teaching of "intelligent design" alongside Darwin's theory of evolution.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4545822.stm
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In a 139-page written ruling, the judge said: "Our conclusion today is that it is unconstitutional to teach ID as an alternative to evolution in a public school science classroom."
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes, this issue is officially settled. Thank you, judge. |
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rok_the-boat
Joined: 24 Jan 2004
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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What do you mean by that? Do you mean that the idea of creation or intelligent design is dead, or the idea that ID can be considered science is dead? |
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