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edgellskiuk
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:46 am Post subject: |
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[quote="fiveeagles"]Not that I agree with violent protests, but I can't help but think this country is better off with free trade. Like I have posted before, this country has little poverty. Maybe, there are other factors, but I would assume free trade would greatly affect the discrepancy between the rich and the poor.
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If the poor could buy rice cheaper surely it would mean they would have lower food bills so could eat more/better rather than subsidising an inefficiant farming community by paying through the nose for the staple of their diet. |
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edgellskiuk
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:57 am Post subject: |
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All the Korean trade unionists and farmers seem to achieved among my friends and colleagues from Hong Kong and in China is lose any sympathy.
I discussed the issue with many of them before and after the protests and their opinion has gone from the majority being sympathetic to the Koreans, to something between annoyance and disgust with them. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| edgellskiuk wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
Not that I agree with violent protests, but I can't help but think this country is better off with free trade. Like I have posted before, this country has little poverty. Maybe, there are other factors, but I would assume free trade would greatly affect the discrepancy between the rich and the poor.
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If the poor could buy rice cheaper surely it would mean they would have lower food bills so could eat more/better rather than subsidising an inefficiant farming community by paying through the nose for the staple of their diet. |
"Paying through the nose"?!
I'm mystified by this vicarious outrage over the price of something which one barely notices on a restaurant or shopping bill. I can spend more in one night on booze than in a year on rice.
Nor do I notice "the poor" with whom you have such faux sympathy out protesting the price of rice. No doubt they will eventually be forced to eat cheaper imported rice and will subsequently feel themselves the poorer because, get this, the taste and texture of Korean (or Japanese) rice is actually different to that of many other countries' types of rice, and they do actually care about it. Any Westerners who either don't notice or don't care about the difference between Korean and Indian rice have completely failed to understand the culture here.
fiveeagles may well be right that free trade will create a significant poverty gap and he's certainly right that poverty is not a significant social problem at the moment; so if it ain't broke, don't *beep* with it. The protesters may look ugly and obviously don't represent the worst off farmers of the world but they may still have a point, and now they've got media attention too, which is what protests are about.
By the way has the EU stopped subsidising its farmers? Has America? Didn't think so. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| edgellskiuk wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
Not that I agree with violent protests, but I can't help but think this country is better off with free trade. Like I have posted before, this country has little poverty. Maybe, there are other factors, but I would assume free trade would greatly affect the discrepancy between the rich and the poor.
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If the poor could buy rice cheaper surely it would mean they would have lower food bills so could eat more/better rather than subsidising an inefficiant farming community by paying through the nose for the staple of their diet. |
"Paying through the nose"?!
I'm mystified by this vicarious outrage over the price of something which one barely notices on a restaurant or shopping bill. I can spend more in one night on booze than in a year on rice.
Nor do I notice "the poor" with whom you have such faux sympathy out protesting the price of rice. No doubt they will eventually be forced to eat cheaper imported rice and will subsequently feel themselves the poorer because, get this, the taste and texture of Korean (or Japanese) rice is actually different to that of many other countries' types of rice, and they do actually care about it. Any Westerners who either don't notice or don't care about the difference between Korean and Indian rice have completely failed to understand the culture here.
fiveeagles may well be right that free trade will create a significant poverty gap and he's certainly right that poverty is not a significant social problem at the moment; so if it ain't broke, don't *beep* with it. The protesters may look ugly and obviously don't represent the worst off farmers of the world but they may still have a point, and now they've got media attention too, which is what protests are about.
By the way has the EU stopped subsidising its farmers? Has America? Didn't think so. |
1. Ever buy rice outside Korea? I pay 69 cents/pound for thai rice here, 1.29/lb for Indian. In Korea, one of my biggest expesnses at the grocery store was rice, it pissed me off.
2. Yes, I know there is a difference between Korean rice and other white rices. Doesn't mean that other places can't grow the type Koreans crave.
3. How the heck would less than 1% of the population affect the gap between rich and poor? Just think of the money poured into subsidies that could be used for other purposes. Think of the money saved on buying rice as well.
4. While the EU's farms subsidies are disgusting, and America's are not much better a) they are nothing compared to the tariff Japan and Korea put on rice b) another's actions don't justify your own. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| 1. Ever buy rice outside Korea? I pay 69 cents/pound for thai rice here, 1.29/lb for Indian. In Korea, one of my biggest expesnses at the grocery store was rice, it pissed me off. |
Really? You must be easy to piss off then. I'm not saying it isn't expensive as far as rice goes - but it's still just rice and it doesn't exactly burn a hole in one's pocket. If it weren't for the media and Dave's I wouldn't even notice.
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| 2. Yes, I know there is a difference between Korean rice and other white rices. Doesn't mean that other places can't grow the type Koreans crave. |
Fair comment. Setting up "Korean" rice farms in Thailand right now might be a smart business move. I mentioned it because I suspect there are people who don't see the issue clearly because rice is just rice to them.
Of course there is also the issue of the rural economy and culture, and the national security that comes with not relying on imports for food.
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| 3. How the heck would less than 1% of the population affect the gap between rich and poor? Just think of the money poured into subsidies that could be used for other purposes. Think of the money saved on buying rice as well. |
That 1% are part of an economic system so there would be knock on effects, but I was arguing against free trade in general anyway.
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| 4. While the EU's farms subsidies are disgusting, and America's are not much better a) they are nothing compared to the tariff Japan and Korea put on rice b) another's actions don't justify your own. |
Yes but pots shouldn't call kettles black. |
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edgellskiuk
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:50 am Post subject: |
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Privateer wrote:
| Quote: |
Nor do I notice "the poor" with whom you have such faux sympathy out protesting the price of rice. No doubt they will eventually be forced to eat cheaper imported rice and will subsequently feel themselves the poorer because, get this, the taste and texture of Korean (or Japanese) rice is actually different to that of many other countries' types of rice, and they do actually care about it. Any Westerners who either don't notice or don't care about the difference between Korean and Indian rice have completely failed to understand the culture here.
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Thanks for pointing out there are different types of rice, next you will tell me there are different types of potatos.
As you say Koreans have great attachment to their particular type of rice so why are the farmers worried anyway? Everybody will keep buying their rice anyway so they will not lose out and the foreign rice will sit on the shelves and not sell so will not be imported much anyway. Its about choice let the market decide.
I agree with you about EU subsidies as being from the UK I am fed up with my taxes supporting inefficient french farmers.
Yes the protestors are getting plenty of press coverage but is it the sort they want? I do not really blame the farmers even the worse offenders at the weekend seemed to be Korean Trade unionists rather than the farmers group themselves. |
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edgellskiuk
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:04 am Post subject: |
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Privateer wrote:
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Fair comment. Setting up "Korean" rice farms in Thailand right now might be a smart business move. I mentioned it because I suspect there are people who don't see the issue clearly because rice is just rice to them.
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I take it that was aimed at me. Sorry I understand rices are different otherwise i would not pay through the nose for imported italian Arborio rice to make risooto and would just get some bog standard chinese sticky rice.
And "pot calling kettle black" ? Where did i say I support EU Farm subsidies the topic was korean farmers not eu farmers so I commented on Korean farmers. If it had been farm subsidies globally I would have mentioned my opposition to eu and american farm subsidies but it wasn't so i didn't . |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| Of course there is also the issue of the rural economy and culture, and the national security that comes with not relying on imports for food. |
While many smaller farms would collapse, they would be picked up by larger farms who have become far more efficient. Most Korean farms are still doing almost everything by hand, and attempts in the 1990s to give guaranteed and interest-free loans to modernize the rice industry pretty much failed because most of it went into new cars, TVs, better homes, or not-really-useful farm equipment. Ironically, forgiveness of these loans is a demand by many farmers today and cited as an anchor that will make them less competative if they are forced to pay back this money.
Imagine if in Canada that the average wheat field owned by a farmer wasn't 400 acres that they cultivated with machines, but two acres done by hand. The cost of what would skyrocket because it simply would take much more work to cultivate. This is what the Korean rice industry is like today and it needs to be changed.
Not that national security of rice is a real issue. The Korean Government stocks a two-year supply. And their "self-dependency" stand has been limited to rice only so it's hard to take it seriously when they aren't developing security in other areas of food production.
And, ironically, rice is pretty much the worst crop to raise in terms of environmental damage all while rice is little more than sugar in terms of health value.
| Quote: |
| That 1% are part of an economic system so there would be knock on effects, but I was arguing against free trade in general anyway. |
At one time, people supporting horses and carriages were a huge part of the economic system. Should we have mandated protection for them? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| edgellskiuk wrote: |
Privateer wrote:
| Quote: |
Fair comment. Setting up "Korean" rice farms in Thailand right now might be a smart business move. I mentioned it because I suspect there are people who don't see the issue clearly because rice is just rice to them.
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I take it that was aimed at me. Sorry I understand rices are different otherwise i would not pay through the nose for imported italian Arborio rice to make risooto and would just get some bog standard chinese sticky rice.
And "pot calling kettle black" ? Where did i say I support EU Farm subsidies the topic was korean farmers not eu farmers so I commented on Korean farmers. If it had been farm subsidies globally I would have mentioned my opposition to eu and american farm subsidies but it wasn't so i didn't . |
I believe his comments were directed towards mine. Nevertheless, my opinion is perfectly expressed in the 2nd paragraph, so thanks. |
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fidel
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: North Shore NZ
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| The Korean rice farmers are simply doing what every industry does in every country, trying to protect what they have in order to maximise their profits. I bear no ill-will towards them but believe they aren't looking at the bigger picture and the long term. Koreans prefer to eat Korean produced argricultural products and are willing to pay the premium to do so. Just have a look at Korean beef, up to 7000 won per 100 grams but hugely popular. Play on the nationalist psyche and Koreans will still buy K rice. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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We are assigning too much rationality to these protesters. I've loosely follwed these protests since the one that rocked Seattle in '99.
I've never been satisfied that I understand whatl these people are protesting. Does anyone know what the gist of their complaint is? |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
We are assigning too much rationality to these protesters. I've loosely follwed these protests since the one that rocked Seattle in '99.
I've never been satisfied that I understand whatl these people are protesting. Does anyone know what the gist of their complaint is? |
I was one of them myself once, and I'm not totally clear on a precise cause myself.
Indeed I was an anti-globalisation protester in Melbourne in 2000 when we blockaded the Crown Casino forcing delegates to be airlifted in by helicopter, and dancing on the bonnet of Governor Steve Bracks car as it ran the cordon.
What I personally was protesting back then was environmental destruction at the hands of agricultural policies: GM crops and pesticides, policies leading to the wrecking of natural land systems, forcing countries to inetensify etc.
However for most protesters, it was a general anti-capitalist thing, combined with trendy ideas like cancelling third world debt, and living together in self sufficient communes without businessmen and money hungry people trashing the earth for profit.
This time, Korean farmers are trying to maintain the unrealistic protections of their rice. if the new deal goes ahead, Foreign rice will be allowed into Korea and cheap stuff from countries like Cambodia or Vietnam will flodd Korea, stopping Korean farmers from being able to charge high prices because they have no competition. Not sure exactly how I feel on this, and what the results will be. However its fun to watch Koreans getting to grips with the norms of international trade (ie, its a two way process). |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
We are assigning too much rationality to these protesters. I've loosely follwed these protests since the one that rocked Seattle in '99.
I've never been satisfied that I understand whatl these people are protesting. Does anyone know what the gist of their complaint is? |
Aww man, it's a starbucks McGlobalized world man, disney crap culture shoved down our throats by the corporate fascists man!! Everywhere you go, dude, it's like Burger King. The world leaders gotta address this, man.
(Seriously, though, as Rapier points out, some of the protetors do have genuine issues. However, I agree with Gopher that, as a whole, the anti-globalization movement has some difficulty "articulating their concerns", as it were, to the general public). |
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