Korean Job Discussion Forums

[R. S. Refugee]

Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller testifies before the Senate Armed Services Committee on Capitol Hill about Iraqi prisoner abuse, May 19, 2004. Miller has asserted his right not to incriminate himself in the courts-martial of two soldiers accused of mistreating detainees there, The Washington Post reported on Thursday. REUTERS/Kevin Lamarque

Published on Thursday, January 12, 2006 by Reuters
US General Invokes Right in Iraq Cases

WASHINGTON - A U.S. Army general who helped set up operations at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq has asserted his right not to incriminate himself in the courts-martial of two soldiers accused of mistreating detainees there, The Washington Post reported on Thursday.

The move by Major Gen. Geoffrey Miller is the first time he has indicated he might have information that could implicate him in wrongdoing, the newspaper said, citing military lawyers. Invoking the right does not legally imply guilt it said.

It said the action came shortly after the commanding officer at Abu Ghraib, Col. Thomas Pappas, accepted immunity this week and was ordered to testify at upcoming courts martial.

Miller once supervised the jail for foreign terrorism suspects at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. He helped introduce Guantanamo-style questioning methods in Iraq ahead of the 2003 abuse scandal at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.

Harvey Volzer, an attorney for one of two solders accused of using dogs to intimate prisoners at Abu Ghraib, wanted to question Miller about whether he ordered the use of dogs during interrogations, the Post said.

Miller invoked his right against self-incrimination through his Army lawyer on Tuesday after a military judge ruled that lawyers representing the dog handlers could interview the general this week, the article said.

Miller's lawyer, Maj. Michelle Crawford, was quoted as saying that the general decided not to answer more questions because he has "been interviewed repeatedly over the last several years" about his role at Guantanamo Bay and his visit to Iraq in 2003, the newspaper reported.

Seven low-ranking military police have taken most of the blame for abuses at Abu Ghraib, the newspaper said. No high-raking officers have faced criminal charges.

In an interview with defense attorneys for those MPs in August 2004, Miller said he never told Pappas to use dogs in questioning detainees, the Post said.

The United States has faced sharp criticism from rights groups and foreign governments over its treatment of prisoners in its declared war on terrorism and in the war in Iraq, because of reports of abuse of detainees at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba and at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

© Reuters 2006

[khyber]

[blackbird]

The [Canadian] GOC [General A.G.L. McNaughton] said: 'This is our opportunity to show the stuff we are made of. Its going to be a sticky business. You must be ruthless and in dealing with refugees remember the Fifth Column. Tell the men we are not particularly interested in prisoners.'


The US army has conducted itself better in Iraq than any army in the history of the world. Certainly better than ANY army in WWI or II. The above quote is from the diary of a Canadian general fighting in Normandy. He actively promoted the targeting of refugees and the killing of prisoners. He was never charged with a war crime and no one complained about this oversight.

[khyber]

[Gopher]

On the other hand, if they are capable of hijacking commercial airlines and attempting to take out large civilian targets in the U.S. in one fell swoop, or ruthlessly attacking mass transportation providers in Spain and Britain, then there is a little pressure to see if you can get the prisoners to talk before they do something else, no?

I do not approve of torture, and I do not approve of generals taking the fifth. But where's your outrage over the enemy's behavior? That's what's missing from this board in general. Where is your bitter criticism of what the enemy has done and would like to do?

[Hater Depot]

There's not much debate over the evilness of terrorists. The debate club isn't exactly going to be fired up by that one.

[R. S. Refugee]

[Gopher]

[Kuros]

[Wangja]

[Gopher]

[Kuros]

[EFLtrainer]

Logic, wherefor art thou?? Yo, goph, clue up!!! We've had this debate before and you are still wrong. People criticizing or questioning their own goverments are not, in fact, discussing the enemy. With me so far? If the subject of the thread is the behavior of the American military/government, what the flip is the relevance of discussing the ethics and morals of the "enemy"? This makes no sense at all.

[Dan The Chainsawman]

Khyber Said:

*Comparing the war in Iraq with WWII or I may be a bit of a stretch, doncha think? Did the allies torture its prisoners during either war?
Did they fight with blood and guts and ruthlessness? Prolly. From what i've heard, THAT is war. What happens in an interrogation room can't really be equated to what happens on the battle field can it? Having an enemy at your unequivocal mercy sorta ain't a good match if the enemy is shootin' at ya *



Interesting Link regarding the British Army torturing prisoners just after WW2.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1669544,00.html#article_continue

The interrogation camp that turned prisoners into living skeletons

German spa became a forbidden village where Gestapo-like techniques were used

Ian Cobain
Saturday December 17, 2005
The Guardian


Despite the six years of bitter fighting which lay behind him, James Morgan-Jones, a major in the Royal Artillery, could not have been more specific about the spectacle in front of him. "It was," he reported, "one of the most disgusting sights of my life."
Curled up on a bed in a hospital in Rotenburg, near Bremen, was a cadaverous shadow of a human being. "The man literally had no flesh on him, his state of emaciation was incredible," wrote Morgan-Jones. This man had weighed a little over six stones (38kg) on admission five weeks earlier, and "was still a figure which may well have been one of the Belsen inmates". At the base of his spine "was a huge festering sore", and he was clearly terrified of returning to the prison where he had been brought so close to death. "If ever a man showed fear - he did," Morgan-Jones declared.


Elsewhere

During the Normandy landings numerous incidents of shooting of unarmed prisoners by US soldiers were reported. You also have the Dresden fire bombing to look at for random acts of senseless carnage. So stating that WW2 was fought with glory and honor is a bit of a misconception.

However, not once did we ever attempt to measure our level of humanity against that of the Nazis or the Japanese. You do not find a perponderance of occasions in where allied soldiers were deliberately ordered to torture or kill prisoners based on the actions of the Axis powers. Admittedly mistakes were made, and mistakes will always be made. However to compare our actions today and justify them as right by examining the actions of terrorists is embarrassing.

Look to the example of Senator John McCain and his opposition to the use of torture. We are not terrorist, at least not in our eyes we are not, therefore I see no need to act like one.

[bucheon bum]

goph, i think you generally make a strong argument and seem quite moderate, but come on man... you're grasping for straws here. Wangja made an excellent point and you just dismissed him and copied and pasted atrocities going on in Iraq. Weak there.

And the insurgents/terrorists/whatever you want to call them are not cowards. They might be barbaric, sociopaths, etc., but they have some sense and know how to be effective. The whole "coward" thing is what frustrated forces whip out everytime when they face an enemy they can't get a total read on.

Those cowards want one thing: america to fail. And how can america fail? By pulling out and Iraq becoming anti-american (except if it is a democratic anti-american regime).

Not a very hard goal to accomplish if you ask me.