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Alias
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:45 am Post subject: Is God dead in Europe? |
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As only an occasional visitor to Europe, I claim no expertise in these matters. But some who do see the emergence of a post-Christian era in Europe that has profound consequences for the continent and perhaps is an ominous portend for the United States. Where Europe has gone, America could be going � and that is a prospect that is frightening Christians and sharpening the religious divide in this country.
Western Europe, the cradle of modern Christianity, has become a "post-Christian society" in which the ruling class and cultural leaders are anti-religious or "Christophobic," writes George Weigel, a Catholic columnist and U.S. biographer of Pope John Paul II. In his new book, The Cube and the Cathedral: Europe, America, and Politics Without God, he argues that religious differences help explain the policy tensions between Europe and the United States.
"It would be too simple to say that the reason Americans and Europeans see the world so differently is that the former go to church on Sundays and the latter don't," Weigel writes. "But it would also be a grave mistake to think that the dramatic differences in religious belief and practice in the United States and Europe don't have something important to do with those different perceptions of the world � and the different policies to which those perceptions eventually lead."
A fierce controversy over any mention of Europe's Christian heritage erupted in 2004 when officials were drafting a constitution for the European Union, Weigel notes.
Any mention of the continent's religious past or contributions of Christian culture � in a preface citing the sources of Europe's distinct civilization � would be exclusionary and offensive to non-Christians, many argued. Former French president Valery Giscard d'Estaing, who presided over the process, summed up the dominant view: "Europeans live in a purely secular political system, where religion does not play an important role."
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God is not dead in Europe. His name is Allah.... 
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2006-01-08-faith-edit_x.htm |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:57 am Post subject: |
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God is dead in Europe.
Nietzsche diagnosed this condition over a century ago.
And Kierkegaard lamented the fact.
The twentieth century became a post-prophetic testament to it.
So what else is new? |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| Former French president Valery Giscard d'Estaing, who presided over the process, summed up the dominant view: "Europeans live in a purely secular political system, where religion does not play an important role." |
And rightly so. |
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The Cube
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:29 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by The Cube on Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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joe_doufu
Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah but, somehow, America is more effectively governed. I'm talking economically here. USA has half the population of Europe but significantly greater economic power, greater foreign + military influence, bigger and better universities and corporations, and fewer repressed immigrants rioting and blowing themselves up. How about that? |
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keithinkorea
Joined: 17 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:54 am Post subject: |
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| joe_doufu wrote: |
| Yeah but, somehow, America is more effectively governed. I'm talking economically here. USA has half the population of Europe but significantly greater economic power, greater foreign + military influence, bigger and better universities and corporations, and fewer repressed immigrants rioting and blowing themselves up. How about that? |
'How about that?'
For a stupid thing to say. I'm not anti US but arrogance is a really ugly thing.
The US is more effectively governed? Hmm Katrina ring a bell, your President is a subliterate and an embarrasement to your country.
Greater economic power? The country is hugely in debt, the chickens will come home one day in the not too distant future.
Greater influence = A bigger stick to hit non compliant countries with? Is that a good thing.
Bigger and better universities? Why is bigger better? I agree that for post grad studies American universities have a very good reputation but the quality of normal graduate degrees is pretty lax.
Repressed immigrants? Obviously not a good thing but are race riots, loads of drugged up gangsters with guns shooting the place up any better? Coupled with the KKK and other white power groups.
Joe you're usually alright but you have made yourself look pretty stupid with that post.
Regarding religious beliefs I'm glad that people are wising up in Europe and not believing in fairytales quite so much. GWB's constant talking about god and other such nonsense is incredible. I'm all for people behaving in a moral way, I'm against 'religious' types using god to justify hidieous behaviour.
Secular humanism is the way to go.
Last edited by keithinkorea on Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Alias
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:54 am Post subject: |
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| Must be the work of God...... |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:34 am Post subject: |
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| keithinkorea wrote: |
| joe_doufu wrote: |
| Yeah but, somehow, America is more effectively governed. I'm talking economically here. USA has half the population of Europe but significantly greater economic power, greater foreign + military influence, bigger and better universities and corporations, and fewer repressed immigrants rioting and blowing themselves up. How about that? |
'How about that?'
For a stupid thing to say. I'm not anti US but arrogance is a really ugly thing.
The US is more effectively governed? Hmm Katrina ring a bell, your President is a subliterate and an embarrasement to your country.
Greater economic power? The country is hugely in debt, the chickens will come home one day in the not too distant future.
Greater influence = A bigger stick to hit non compliant countries with? Is that a good thing.
Bigger and better universities? Why is bigger better? I agree that for post grad studies American universities have a very good reputation but the quality of normal graduate degrees is pretty lax.
Repressed immigrants? Obviously not a good thing but are race riots, loads of drugged up gangsters with guns shooting the place up any better? Coupled with the KKK and other white power groups.
Joe you're usually alright but you have made yourself look pretty stupid with that post.
Regarding religious beliefs I'm glad that people are wising up in Europe and not believing in fairytales quite so much. GWB's constant talking about god and other such nonsense is incredible. I'm all for people behaving in a moral way, I'm against 'religious' types using god to justify hidieous behaviour.
Secular humanism is the way to go. |
The US is better governed. Sure, we can use the straw-man of Katrina (using one example to disprove a huge point, which I will do in this post), but of course, one could retort that there was quite a bit of death in Socialist France after a blooody heat wave.
The country is in debt. And this isn't a good thing. But if you think that this is some how going to be the downfall of modern Rome you've got another thing coming. By the by, relative to GDP, do you know the rates of debt to GDP in European nations? Naaahhh.
I want you to look at the global rankings, ANY global rankings of unis. America so overwhelming dominates this field that it is simple asinine that you even tried to challenge it.
American immigrants are more successful than European, however you (reasonably) want to quantify the question. America has a problem with an underclass of Blacks, most all of whom were born and raised in country. And the problem is quite properly exaggerated by media. Europe will cease to exist, at least in the way that we know it, because of Islamic immigration.
Joe didn't make himself look stupid. You did.
That post was one big straw-man. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:40 am Post subject: |
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| Joe you're usually alright but you have made yourself look pretty stupid with that post. |
I just don't understand comments like this?
It should read like this...Joe, I thought you were ok when I agreed with ya, but now that you have a different opinion than me...well now I think you are stupid.
Wow! What intelligence and beyond that...what loyalty.
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The US is more effectively governed? Hmm Katrina ring a bell, your President is a subliterate and an embarrasement to your country. |
Yeah, its all His fault...everything. He should have got in an airplane and stopped it himself. What was he thinking?
Not the fact that the governor or mayor messed up in a big way.
Or that it was the biggest storm ever in the US history.
NOPE...it was strickly BUSH.
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| Greater economic power? The country is hugely in debt, the chickens will come home one day in the not too distant future. |
How did the USA win the coldwar? Ummm, going deep in debt. You think there might be a strategy here that they're not letting you in on?
Last edited by fiveeagles on Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:52 am Post subject: |
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How did this turn into an anti-America tirade? The topic is "Is God dead in Europe?". Idiocy...
Yes, I will give God credit, he lasted a long time. But he is losing now and I can't say I am particularly upset. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:23 am Post subject: |
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| eamo wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Former French president Valery Giscard d'Estaing, who presided over the process, summed up the dominant view: "Europeans live in a purely secular political system, where religion does not play an important role." |
And rightly so. |
Quite agree, religion and state should be kept entirely separate.
Christianity is dying in Europe: Islam and a multitude of other things are filling the vacuum. Just look around there, the churches are empty and used as sports halls or gymnasiums. You could say Christians are almost persecuted, actually.
If, as seems likely, "Eurabia" comes to pass in a few decades, then you will probably find religion and government closely tied. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
Quite agree, religion and state should be kept entirely separate.
Christianity is dying in Europe: Islam and a multitude of other things are filling the vacuum. Just look around there, the churches are empty and used as sports halls or gymnasiums. You could say Christians are almost persecuted, actually.
If, as seems likely, "Eurabia" comes to pass in a few decades, then you will probably find religion and government closely tied. |
Oh don't start the "Christians are persecuted now" crying. I had never heard anything more crazy until I heard some white guy crying about how white men are being persecuted. Yes, there are examples of persecution of both those groups, but they are limited and incredibly small scale. The day Aethiests burn down your church and force you to stop practicing in your own home, then fine. To be honest, it will probably be another religion (or division of Christianity) to do that  |
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Alias
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:05 am Post subject: |
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| Christians are persecuted in places like Sudan and Egypt. Not Amsterdam or Boston. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:10 am Post subject: |
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| Alias wrote: |
| Christians are persecuted in places like Sudan and Egypt. Not Amsterdam or Boston. |
And muslims are persecuted in Boston. We are not talking about the Muslim world, we are talking about Western Society (and more specifically how God is dying in Europe). I have an even bigger beef with those places than I do with Christianity, but that is another topic and not relevant. |
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Dan The Chainsawman
Joined: 05 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:00 am Post subject: |
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Not even this got rid of god in Europe. He is there in the hearts of those who believe in his existence in one form or another. |
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