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| The death penalty |
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7% |
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| Total Votes : 40 |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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 Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Ah, pliggy... will get back to you later; no time now. |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm saying that sometimes it is permissible. As in self-defense or in wartime. What I object to is murder or manslaughter. |
I haven't read much of this thread: Are you an abolitionist?
Cause, neither of the two examples you give relate to killing as a justifiable form of punishment.
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U.S. jurisprudence recognizes "justifiable homicide."
So "killing" is not a yes/no either/or black/white issue, at least not in the California Penal Code. |
Pardon me for jumping in here but...
are you arguing that "justifiable homicide" means that the death penalty is a viable PUNISHMENT?...or are you just sayin' what yer sayin'?
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| All killing isn't wrong, as Gopher states. When I saw words like barbaric and uncivilized being thrown out there (and let us pause to reflect on the relativistic hypocracy of such statements, I would never expect to hear such condemnations of the Aztecs, for that would be 'ethnocentric'), I decided to bring up the distinction. |
But you're confusing "killing" and "the death penalty".
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| What I object to is murder or manslaughter. |
Justifiable homicide; wartime these are legitimate times to kill.
Sure you "object to manslaughter or murder"...come on now. EVERYONE ON THIS FORUM objects to those two.
Out of curiosity, what KIND of killing was described as "barbaric and uncivilized"? There's a BIG diff between killing someone who is raping you, and killing a children non?
<Are you bringing up the social intricacies of Aztec culture and comparing it to modern day western values?
Just because it happened at SOME POINT in human history, doesn't mean that its EXACTLY THE SAME as another space and time.>
[/quote] |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| khyber wrote: |
| I haven't read much of this thread...Pardon me for jumping in here but...are you arguing that "justifiable homicide" means that the death penalty is a viable PUNISHMENT?...or are you just sayin' what yer sayin'? |
Please see the context of my remarks before responding in the future. That might clear up the confusion.
The discussion had left the focused debate on "the death penalty" behind and was drifting to a non-specific consideration of "killing is wrong," which is certainly related to the ethics surrounding the death penalty issue. And as I was trying to say, it is far from a straighforward issue. It is multifaceted. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| khyber wrote: |
Quote:
I'm saying that sometimes it is permissible. As in self-defense or in wartime. What I object to is murder or manslaughter.
I haven't read much of this thread: Are you an abolitionist?
Cause, neither of the two examples you give relate to killing as a justifiable form of punishment. |
Actually, like my position on abortion, I am undecided. So, being undecided, I am comfortable with the status quo.
I do see a lot of similarities between those who claim that the death penalty is 'barbaric/uncivilized' and those who advocate that abortion is 'murder.' Now that I think of it, abortion may be another form of killing that is not necessarily murder or manslaughter. Because, to me abortion definitely isn't not killing somebody.
Truth be told, if the death penalty were to be overturned tomorrow, I probably would only regard it with academic interest. But for some reason, these declarations of 'barbarism' and 'uncivilized' conduct elicited a response from me.
| khyber wrote: |
<Are you bringing up the social intricacies of Aztec culture and comparing it to modern day western values?
Just because it happened at SOME POINT in human history, doesn't mean that its EXACTLY THE SAME as another space and time.> |
I'm saying that if the death penalty is 'barbaric and uncivilized' than certainly conducting ritual sacrifices where the hearts of victims are torn out of their chests and stuffed into large statues of gods until the statues' mouths are full and blood is running out them must be barbaric and uncivilized, too.
For me, what the Aztecs did as I described above was barbaric and uncivilized, but I would not describe the death penalty as practiced by many States in the US (because not all practice it) as either barbaric or uncivilized. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
That's the crux of the problem: in your opinion. The point was made very well above that there is a huge difference between the death penalty and abortion. A criminal is universally considered to be a life. A fetus is not. Thus, it is a philosophical issue, not a legal , ethical or moral one. You cannot legislate philosophy!!!
When does life begin?? The moment there is a universally accepted answer to that question you can begin legislating abortion to your heart's content.
You are failing to accept the other side's right to an opinion. Problem is, in legal issues intent is key. If I kill with full knowledge I am ending a person's life, I have committed murder. If I remove what I consider to be a growth, but not a person, it's not much different from having a wart removed. (Don't go flaming me, I am just trying to be as clear as possible.) How can you prosecute someone for that?? |
Are you sniffing glue again? |
Pliggy, dear boy, you ASSume too much, or simply cannot read. I wasn't commenting on your entire post. I was commenting only on your statement that executing a known murderer and having an abotion are the same. And you are correct, it's not an issue of your opion, it one of your logic. IOW, you are utterly wrong. It is not an opinion that they are not the same, it is a fact.
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I particularly like this statement:
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| You cannot legislate philosophy!!! |
Isn't that what you are trying to do? I don't think Roe v. Wade should or will ever be overturned. However, your philosophy isn't everyone's philosophy now, is it? |
No. I was dealing the facts related to how and why each of those two events come about and how society views them. *Not* restricting action is = legislating action???? Ah, but, since you have misundestood my post in the first place... perhaps you should re-read and re-respond?
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| You are failing to accept the other side's right to an opinion. |
Am I? Really? Because I thought that that entire post, of which you only quoted half, was entirely about me accepting others' opinions! I'll quote myself so that the entire post can be seen. I'll enven boldface the important clues for you. |
Purposefully? Don't be ignorant and rude. As noted above, irrelevant, as I was not addressing what you thought I was addressing.
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| See, Isn't it a little more clear now? can you fully grasp that I was simply stating both sides of the argument? Can you? Can you? |
Wasted rudeness. But ironic given you failed to understand a fairly straightforward post.
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| The point was made very well above that there is a huge difference between the death penalty and abortion. |
Wrong. It was attempted to be made. Asserted, at best. Just becasue it is your opinion that they are different doesn't mean that they are. You know what your problem is, EFLTrainer? |
Ah!! Finally!! On point!!! Bravo, sir! And you're whacky if you believe that. The murderer is universally accepted to be a human life. A fetus, particularly early term, is not. A person who has an abortion and truly believes it is not in any way a human life cannot be considered to be "executing" a person. If your argument were that it is the ending of a life, or manslughter or something you'd be closer to having an argument. But equating execution with abortion? Not even close.
Doesn't hold up logically or otherwise.
Last edited by EFLtrainer on Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| Grotto wrote: |
EFNY would be an interesting social experiment.
Would it be a dog eat dog world?
Would they break down into racially segregated gangs each feeding off the other?
Would they be forced to learn how to cooperate in order to survive?
Would they founder and die?
Do you actually think that an EFNY type prison would actually be the death penalty or the alternitive? |
I'm sure it would be each of the first three, then latter would be impossible, at least for natural causes, because of design of the system. As for your last comment, I assume both, really. But the difference would have a chance. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:07 am Post subject: |
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Quote EFLTrainer:
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| a human life..A fetus, particularly early term, is not. |
a) A human foetus is clearly human...
b) It is alive.
So it must be a human life.
Seems logical enough. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:38 am Post subject: ... |
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Just like sperm, eh?
Gopher,
You're really just dealing in technicalities.
If killing someone is wrong, then killing someone is wrong.*,**
*except in self-defense
**as applies to serving and protecting a la law enforcement/military
Other forms, like temporary insanity, only mitigate as opposed to exonerate. In other words, they're still wrong.
In regards to the death penalty, there is no imminent danger being posed by the condemned. So, why kill them? IF KILLING IS WRONG, THEN KILLING IS WRONG.
It really is quite simple.
Your platitudes about complexity are really just that. |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:18 am Post subject: |
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If killing someone is wrong, then killing someone is wrong.*,**
*except in self-defense |
Wouldnt you call it self defence if there was a good chance that the criminal would re-offend?
Why does society insist on waiting until someone is killed before acting.
Ridding the prisons of criminals who are guilty of armed robbery, assault, murder, etc....anyone who is in for the third time for a violent felony. ZIP ZAP done. Overcrowding? Not a problem. Crime in the world? Way way down.
If it is highly probable that they will re-offend then it is reasonable to put them to death in order to protect society.
Victims need to be protected! Not the criminals! |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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Nowhere Man: Actually, I'm not dealing "in technicalities" or "platitutes" at all.
I cited the law on "killing."
On the condemned: some of the conmdemned should certainly be executed. No hesitation on that. Give them their judicial reviews, but then execute them forthwith. So, yes, it really is quite simple. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:59 am Post subject: ... |
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Nowhere Man: Actually, I'm not dealing "in technicalities" or "platitutes" at all.
I cited the law on "killing." |
You cited a legal technicality for which there are actually very few cases.
It's ok to kill someone who is trying to kill you or you have been empowered to defend someone whose life is being threatened.
Aside from that, killing is wrong. The situation might mitigate how wrong it is, but the violator is/should be punished.
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| On the condemned: some of the conmdemned should certainly be executed. No hesitation on that. Give them their judicial reviews, but then execute them forthwith. So, yes, it really is quite simple. |
It's not that simple. Let's throw a bit of Grotto in here: how should they be killed? Lethal injection or burned at the stake? Slow roasted? Microwaved? Locked in a room where Barry Manilow is gradually played louder and louder until the condemned's head explodes?
The point is it's revenge, not justice.
In regard to Kuros's proposition that modern executions are civilized, someone somewhere begged the question, "Is it civilized if cannibals eat with a knife and fork?"
If killing is worng, then killing is wrong. 2 wrongs don't make a right. In this case they make revenge.
Some issues are black and white.
If rape is wrong, then rape is wrong.
"One should be careful in dealing with monsters. When you stare into the abyss, the abyss also stares into you." -Nietsche |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:14 am Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
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Nowhere Man: Actually, I'm not dealing "in technicalities" or "platitutes" at all.
I cited the law on "killing." |
You cited a legal technicality for which there are actually very few cases.
It's ok to kill someone who is trying to kill you or you have been empowered to defend someone whose life is being threatened.
Aside from that, killing is wrong. The situation might mitigate how wrong it is, but the violator is/should be punished.
| Quote: |
| On the condemned: some of the conmdemned should certainly be executed. No hesitation on that. Give them their judicial reviews, but then execute them forthwith. So, yes, it really is quite simple. |
It's not that simple. Let's throw a bit of Grotto in here: how should they be killed? Lethal injection or burned at the stake? Slow roasted? Microwaved? Locked in a room where Barry Manilow is gradually played louder and louder until the condemned's head explodes?
The point is it's revenge, not justice.
In regard to Kuros's proposition that modern executions are civilized, someone somewhere begged the question, "Is it civilized if cannibals eat with a knife and fork?"
If killing is worng, then killing is wrong. 2 wrongs don't make a right. In this case they make revenge.
Some issues are black and white.
If rape is wrong, then rape is wrong.
"One should be careful in dealing with monsters. When you stare into the abyss, the abyss also stares into you." -Nietsche |
No killing is not wrong. If I kill an enemy in battle, I have not done anything wrong, indeed, I have done something commendable. If I kill a chicken outside my house, and then serve it at dinner, I am feeding my family, and doing something commendable.
In addition, it may be more than simply vengeance. You are aware that many of the people on death row also killed people in jail.
At any rate, my conception of justice admits that one might be killed for certain transgressions. Hitler should have been executed if he had been caught, and many of the Nazis executed were rightfully so.
Anyway, I'm pretty satisfied I'm not going to find a resolution of my position on the death penalty here. Too many people preaching. Seriously, some of you liberals remind me of the rightists when they're going off about abortion. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:37 am Post subject: ... |
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| No killing is not wrong. If I kill an enemy in battle, I have not done anything wrong, indeed, I have done something commendable. |
See here:
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| It's ok to kill someone who is trying to kill you or you have been empowered to defend someone whose life is being threatened. |
Did Iraqis invading Kuwait do something commendable?
Chicken? Point taken. If taking another human life is wrong, then taking another human life is wrong.
Liberals?
If we're there, your point about George Carlin not understanding misquoted Hebrew should bear some scrutiny. Who would Jesus kill?
Pilate?
Judas?
A Kuwaiti?
An Iraqi?
Daumer?
Hitler?
Peasants?
Pheasants?
Would he just, as we hear from the right, just let God sort them out? |
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