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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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 Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 3:35 pm Post subject: Missile blows up Pakistan village |
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'Zawahiri' strike sparks protest:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4613108.stm
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A missile strike apparently targeting al-Qaeda's deputy leader in a village in Pakistan has prompted Islamabad to protest to its American allies.
Ayman al-Zawahiri was not in the village on the border with Afghanistan, Pakistan officials said. But the attack left at least 18 local people dead.
The US military has denied knowledge of the attack, which US media reported had been carried out by the CIA.
But Islamabad condemned the strike and called the US ambassador to complain.
Pakistan's Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed told a news conference the Pakistani government wanted "to assure the people we will not allow such incidents to reoccur". |
This is outrageous. I don't know why I should find this any more outrageous than invading Afghanistan or Iraq. Perhaps because Pakistan is a US ally. I can imagine the reaction if the US blew up Skipton because they suspected a member of Al Qaeda was there - and it's not impossible for one to turn up there. We know the CIA is willing to smuggle suspects out of Europe through secret safe houses. Now we see what they're willing to do when they have a freer hand.
What recourse does Pakistan have now? Will they even get an apology? Under this administration it seems unlikely. The US military simply denies all knowledge, as if the CIA has its own planes. The CIA can kill 18 innocent people and humiliate the entire country, even though it's an ally, and it's just ascribed to 'bad intelligence'. This is just adding insult to injury. What recourse do the families of the dead have? None - except terrorism. |
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blackbird
Joined: 28 Apr 2003
Location: Songtan
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| The US government is unable to do anything about the 20+ million illegal aliens from Mexico living in America but still finds the time to go half way around the world to blow the sh't out of Pakistan. The only way this will get any attention is if the Democrats think they can use this event to smear the Republicans. What a mess. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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Well it has received media attention but look at the spin put on it: the CNN headline is merely that Zawahiri was not among those killed. In other words the main point of interest is that they missed.
12 miners are killed in an accident and it's a national tragedy but these people in Pakistan remain nameless and faceless because they're poor people living in a third world country. It makes me sick. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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The Foreign Office statement said a preliminary investigation shows "there was foreign presence in the area and that in all probability was targeted from across the border in Afghanistan.
"As a result of this act there has been loss of innocent civilian lives which we condemn. The investigations are still continuing."
Sheikh Rashid Ahmed, Pakistan's information minister, said that the U.S. ambassador, Ryan Crocker, is to be summoned and a strong protest will be made.
"While this act is highly condemnable, we have for a long time been striving to rid all our tribal areas of foreign intruders who have been responsible for all the violence and misery in the region. This situation has to be brought to an end."
He added that it "is also the responsibility of the people in the areas to fully cooperate.'"
U.S.-led coalition forces in Afghanistan have long been concerned about foreign fighters taking refuge in neighboring Pakistan.
The Foreign Office statement said Pakistan's armed forces "have undertaken a large-scale operation against the foreign militants and it remains our responsibility to protect our people and territory from outside intrusion." |
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/01/14/alqaeda.strike/index.html
The situation in Pakistan is far from simple or straighforward. This incident will certainly compound the govt's problems there.
The military regime is friendly to the U.S. govt, and has collaborated as a partner in regional affairs for some time. For example, in the region's resistance to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the Pakistani regime ran the resistance operations that the U.S. govt and the Saudi govt jointly funded, and that, incidentally, the British, Israeli, and Egyptian govts made significant contributions to as well.
The typical tribespeople in Pakistan, however, tend to lean towards fundamentalist interpretations of world affairs and the U.S., and thus the Pakistani govt is walking something of a tightrope in situations like these.
This situation is most unfortunate, and it exacerbates problems for the U.S. in the region but does not create new hatreds where hatreds did not exist before. This is absurd.
So please do not assert that these peaceful and virtuous "poor people living in a Third-World country" will now, for the first time, turn to terrorism whereas they were somehow neutral or innocent before, which they clearly were not, even if they were not combatants.
If you aid and abet, sometimes this puts you in the line of fire. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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Here's an earlier story, for additional background on the area...(emphasis is mine)
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Afghan Troops, U.S. Warplanes Attack Guerrillas
Dozens Killed Near Border
Associated Press
Wednesday, August 4, 2004; Page A15
KABUL, Afghanistan, Aug. 3 -- Afghan troops backed by U.S. warplanes killed as many as 70 guerrillas in a day-long battle near the Pakistani border, military officials said Tuesday.
An Afghan commander said government forces heard radio messages in Arabic and Chechen suggesting that al Qaeda fighters were involved.
"We could hear the enemy," said Gen. Nawab, the Afghan commander. "I'm sure there were foreigners involved."
The battle began about 2 a.m. Monday when dozens of guerrillas armed with rockets, mortars and machine guns attacked a border post in the province of Khost, a former al Qaeda stronghold 100 miles southeast of the capital, Kabul.
A U.S. spokesman, Maj. Rick Peat, said the U.S. military sent in a B-1 bomber, A-10 ground-attack aircraft and helicopter gunships and flew in Afghan reinforcements, eventually forcing the assailants to flee "in panic." Peat said no U.S. ground troops were involved.
Pilots reported seeing 40 to 50 bodies on the battlefield near the mountainous Pakistani border, Peat said, and several wrecked vehicles were spotted.
Nawab put the rebel toll as high as 70, saying the guerrillas had dragged away many dead and wounded as they retreated into Pakistan. Afghan forces recovered only 10 bodies, he said.
The U.S. military said one of more than 100 Afghan soldiers involved in the fighting was killed and three others were wounded. However, another Afghan commander, Khial Baz, said two of his men had died.
The guerrilla death toll appeared to be one of the heaviest since U.S. planes pounded Taliban forces before the hard-line Islamic movement was driven from power in late 2001.
Assaults led by U.S. Marines in a Taliban stronghold in southern Afghanistan in May and June killed more than 100 guerrillas, commanders have said, but it was unclear how many fell in a single engagement.
Khost borders Pakistan's Waziristan tribal area, where Pakistani officials say hundreds of foreign fighters have found refuge among sympathetic Pashtun tribesmen, the same ethnic group from which the Taliban draws much of its strength. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| So please do not assert that these peaceful and virtuous people will now, for the first time, turn to terrorism whereas they were somehow neutral before, which, they clearly were not, even if they were not necessarily combatants. |
I have not asserted any such thing. What I do assert is that there is no justice for these people.
| Gopher wrote: |
| If you aid and abet, sometimes this puts you in the line of fire. |
The people living on the Pakistan/Afghanistan border are evidently in the line of fire regardless of whether they aid and abet or not so don't insinuate that they are all guilty. I remind you that there are also children living there. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| Obviously... Killing the brains behind Al Quaeda is more important than holding onto an important strategic ally. Risky choice to make. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| Obviously... Killing the brains behind Al Quaeda is more important than holding onto an important strategic ally. Risky choice to make. |
I'm not so sure about that. Nothing I've heard about AQ leads me to think that it is a particularly centralized organization. I don't think the average AQ loyalist is gonna desist with blowing things up because he hears that some guy in Pakistan got blown away. |
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waggo
Joined: 18 May 2003
Location: pusan baby!
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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| Obviously... Killing the brains behind Al Quaeda is more important than holding onto an important strategic ally. Risky choice to make. |
I'm not so sure about that. Nothing I've heard about AQ leads me to think that it is a particularly centralized organization. I don't think the average AQ loyalist is gonna desist with blowing things up because he hears that some guy in Pakistan got blown away. |
I agree but that doesnt mean that that guy doesnt totally deserve to be blown away anyway. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:28 am Post subject: |
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I'm not so sure about that. Nothing I've heard about AQ leads me to think that it is a particularly centralized organization. I don't think the average AQ loyalist is gonna desist with blowing things up because he hears that some guy in Pakistan got blown away.
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Pre 911, certain stories are that they made decesions to not hit certain targets due to fear of civilian casulties and they feel that may have allowed 911 to continue.
Certain individuals may feel that allowing certain targets to go unhit may allow future events to occur and they can't take the risk.
Hypothetical and post game analysis, I agree, but thats how it is in certain areas and sometimes, you have to take the bad with the good. Though do the dead feel any better for it, probably not in either case. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:28 am Post subject: Re: Missile blows up Pakistan village |
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| Privateer wrote: |
'Zawahiri' strike sparks protest:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4613108.stm
| Quote: |
A missile strike apparently targeting al-Qaeda's deputy leader in a village in Pakistan has prompted Islamabad to protest to its American allies.
Ayman al-Zawahiri was not in the village on the border with Afghanistan, Pakistan officials said. But the attack left at least 18 local people dead.
The US military has denied knowledge of the attack, which US media reported had been carried out by the CIA.
But Islamabad condemned the strike and called the US ambassador to complain.
Pakistan's Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed told a news conference the Pakistani government wanted "to assure the people we will not allow such incidents to reoccur". |
This is outrageous. I don't know why I should find this any more outrageous than invading Afghanistan or Iraq. Perhaps because Pakistan is a US ally. I can imagine the reaction if the US blew up Skipton because they suspected a member of Al Qaeda was there - and it's not impossible for one to turn up there. We know the CIA is willing to smuggle suspects out of Europe through secret safe houses. Now we see what they're willing to do when they have a freer hand.
What recourse does Pakistan have now? Will they even get an apology? Under this administration it seems unlikely. The US military simply denies all knowledge, as if the CIA has its own planes. The CIA can kill 18 innocent people and humiliate the entire country, even though it's an ally, and it's just ascribed to 'bad intelligence'. This is just adding insult to injury. What recourse do the families of the dead have? None - except terrorism. |
I do not cry for the dictatorship of Pakistan which does only a half-assed job of aiding the US anyway. The only victims here are the innocent people who died (if they are innocent). Meanwhile, other accounts state that the foreign ministry of Pakistan has still left it open that there might have been foreign fighters in the area, and that the US is still investigating the bodies to find out if they were in the wrong or right.
But yes, for the children caught up in this I am outraged (not really, but it is unfortunate). |
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Big Mac
Joined: 17 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:08 am Post subject: |
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This story made me sick. The U-S is simply fighting terrorism with terrorism here. Just because it's the U-S who did it doesn't make it right. What they did here is no better than what happened on September 11th.
Pakistan doesn't have the means to fight the U-S on this one, and that's sad. That's why the United States gets away with crap like this...because they know no one can fight back.
Killing innocent people is not right...no matter who you're intending to kill. If Hitler was in there, it still wouldn't be right.
The United States thinks its "war on terror" gives them carte blanche to do stuff like this. I hate that. No wonder some people in the Middle East want to see the United States wiped off the map. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Big Mac wrote: |
The U-S is simply fighting terrorism with terrorism here...Killing innocent people is not right...no matter who you're intending to kill. If Hitler was in there, it still wouldn't be right.
The United States thinks its "war on terror" gives them carte blanche to do stuff like this. I hate that. No wonder some people in the Middle East want to see the United States wiped off the map. |
Your interpretation is annoyingly one-sided.
How about this: AQ is cowardly operating and hiding among civilians, using them as a shield of sorts, hoping that when they are attacked, people like you will react just so. |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| How about this: AQ is cowardly operating and hiding among civilians, using them as a shield of sorts, hoping that when they are attacked, people like you will react just so. |
Justifiably so!
America is cowardly operating and hiding from the safety of its own country. Hiding amongst civilians, using them as a shield of sorts, hoping when they are attacked, people will react just so.
Pretty much describes what happened after 9/11. The US got carte blanche to invade Afghanistan. Also had the carry over effect to enable them to invade Iraq.
Bombing innocent people in a foriegn country is not the way to do business. Whether it be 9/11 or the CIA bombing villagers in an ally's country. They only thing that manages to do is create more hatred and determination to kill or maim your percieved enemies. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't see any of you whining when we did the same thing in Yemen a few years ago.
when it fails, you whine. When it succeeds you remain quiet. Give me a break. |
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