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Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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 Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:31 pm Post subject: "The Americans will always do the right thing... |
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After they've exhausted all the alternatives."
- Winston Churchill |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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I'm reading "Dust of Empire" and highly recommend it.
FWIW, One thing it clearly shows is that the British have gotten off scot-free when it comes to examining the roots of the problems we are faced with today. The west may have forgotten, but the Arabs, Iranians, Indians, Afghanis, and Pakistanis haven't.
How many died in the partitioning of India and Pakistan?
Anyway, I didn't mean to hijack your thread but I think you can see what I'm driving at.
The Russians didn't come off very well either in that region, but of course I don't think anyone here is Russian.
"Karl E. Meyer was a longtime member of The New York Times editorial board, a former foreign correspondent for The Washington Post and is currently the editor of World Policy Journal. He holds a doctorate from Princeton University and has taught at Princeton, Yale, and Oxford Universities." |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
I'm reading "Dust of Empire" and highly recommend it.
FWIW, One thing it clearly shows is that the British have gotten off scot-free when it comes to examining the roots of the problems we are faced with today. The west may have forgotten, but the Arabs, Iranians, Indians, Afghanis, and Pakistanis haven't.
How many died in the partitioning of India and Pakistan?
Anyway, I didn't mean to hijack your thread but I think you can see what I'm driving at.
The Russians didn't come off very well either in that region, but of course I don't think anyone here is Russian.
"Karl E. Meyer was a longtime member of The New York Times editorial board, a former foreign correspondent for The Washington Post and is currently the editor of World Policy Journal. He holds a doctorate from Princeton University and has taught at Princeton, Yale, and Oxford Universities." |
Ha, I don't think the Russians come off very well anywhere in most regions  |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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Well, they always got the short end of the stick and often they deserved it, but thier accomplishments when it comes to empire building were truly impressive.
But of course it's totally unacceptable these days to profess an admiration for anything Russian or anything to do with empire-building.  |
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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
I'm reading "Dust of Empire" and highly recommend it.
FWIW, One thing it clearly shows is that the British have gotten off scot-free when it comes to examining the roots of the problems we are faced with today. The west may have forgotten, but the Arabs, Iranians, Indians, Afghanis, and Pakistanis haven't.
How many died in the partitioning of India and Pakistan?
Anyway, I didn't mean to hijack your thread but I think you can see what I'm driving at.
The Russians didn't come off very well either in that region, but of course I don't think anyone here is Russian.
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Just another book to suggest.......
I am about 400 pages in and it is really good....really puts into perspective the fact that this issue is a long time in coming and pretty much involves all the imperial powers past, present, and possibly future...."Fisker" has really done well with this one.....it is a monstrosity, but very deep and very readable.... |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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Is that his latest? Just released about a month or two ago? Then yeah, I heard that's really good (and huge) it's on my 'must read next' list as well as The Assassin's Gate.
It just depends on which one I can get my hands on first from the library.
[Damn, sorry Wangja, I've totally hijacked your thread- didn't intend to.] |
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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
Is that his latest? Just released about a month or two ago? Then yeah, I heard that's really good (and huge) it's on my 'must read next' list as well as The Assassin's Gate.
It just depends on which one I can get my hands on first from the library.
[Damn, sorry Wangja, I've totally hijacked your thread- didn't intend to.] |
Yes, that's it, the experiences that Fisk has gone through as a war correspondent in Afghanistan, Beirut, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan again and Iraq again, etc....all come out in some wonderful first hand anecdotes that he weaves together with his own take on the history that he is witnessing...
The interviews that he had with bin Laden are particularly interesting and somewhat eerie as well.....This guy just knows how to write and tell a story.....
and Sorry to Wanja as well, but these threads tend to digress most of the time..... |
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Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
I'm reading "Dust of Empire" and highly recommend it.
FWIW, One thing it clearly shows is that the British have gotten off scot-free when it comes to examining the roots of the problems we are faced with today. The west may have forgotten, but the Arabs, Iranians, Indians, Afghanis, and Pakistanis haven't.
How many died in the partitioning of India and Pakistan?
Anyway, I didn't mean to hijack your thread but I think you can see what I'm driving at.
The Russians didn't come off very well either in that region, but of course I don't think anyone here is Russian.
"Karl E. Meyer was a longtime member of The New York Times editorial board, a former foreign correspondent for The Washington Post and is currently the editor of World Policy Journal. He holds a doctorate from Princeton University and has taught at Princeton, Yale, and Oxford Universities." |
That sounds an interesting read.
Another worth reading is Freedom at midnight" about events leading up to independence of India (and Pakistan). This shows that partition, much against the plans and wishes of the British, was forced upon the Indians by the obdurate attitude of Jinnah. Gandhi was supposedly more accommodating and is alleged to have said "Let them (the Indian Moslems) have all cabinet posts" but even this was not acceptable to Jinnah, who died a short while after independence and was unable to witness the results of his obduracy. Would the situation have been less traumatic had there been no partition? Would there have been a civil war follwed by partition later?
I agree we are far from clean in the Middle East, and this pre-dates even the Balfour Declaration (1917 I think). We are not clean even today, although we had been doing better until March 2003. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Wangja wrote: |
| [ This shows that partition, much against the plans and wishes of the British, was forced upon the Indians by the obdurate attitude of Jinnah. Gandhi was supposedly more accommodating and is alleged to have said "Let them (the Indian Moslems) have all cabinet posts" but even this was not acceptable to Jinnah, who died a short while after independence and was unable to witness the results of his obduracy. Would the situation have been less traumatic had there been no partition? Would there have been a civil war follwed by partition later? |
Dust of Empire refutes this completely, says Jinnah was a Muslim but he was also basically defined as a secular lawyer willing to accomodate, and that both the British and Hindus did a total character assassination on him. He lies much more blame on Mountbatten's impatience and unwillingness to slow down the process so that partition could be undertaken in a more orderly (and safer) fashion. Anyway, I'm not familiar with Indian history so I can't speak to the merits of his analysis except to say that you'd probably find it interesting.
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| We are not clean even today, although we had been doing better until March 2003. |
Well, I didn't mean to single Britain out, really, except to say that it's amazing how the US has taken the brunt of the blame for the state of many regions of the world, even though all of the Great Powers of the 19th century had as much or more to do with it.
I guess that's the price you pay for being the top dog. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
I'm reading "Dust of Empire" and highly recommend it.
FWIW, One thing it clearly shows is that the British have gotten off scot-free when it comes to examining the roots of the problems we are faced with today. The west may have forgotten, but the Arabs, Iranians, Indians, Afghanis, and Pakistanis haven't.
How many died in the partitioning of India and Pakistan?
Anyway, I didn't mean to hijack your thread but I think you can see what I'm driving at.
The Russians didn't come off very well either in that region, but of course I don't think anyone here is Russian.
"Karl E. Meyer was a longtime member of The New York Times editorial board, a former foreign correspondent for The Washington Post and is currently the editor of World Policy Journal. He holds a doctorate from Princeton University and has taught at Princeton, Yale, and Oxford Universities." |
That other world powers have abused their power, is no excuse for America doing it now, especially given that it is a nation that prides it self on being a "beacon of light in the free world."
Interestingly, (on the topic of Russian empire building) during my time in Mongolia, I was very surprised to find that, seemingly without exception, Mongolians had nothing but praise for Russia. I had assumed that there'd be a well spring of resentment. Curious. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Well the Mongolians were happy that the Russians helped them keep out the Chinese. The Mongolians are worried about the Chinese taking over and eventually doing the same type of thing they've done in Tibet and western China. |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Well the Mongolians were happy that the Russians helped them keep out the Chinese. The Mongolians are worried about the Chinese taking over and eventually doing the same type of thing they've done in Tibet and western China. |
And Russia knows that China wishes to claim parts of Russia and even central asian countries as its own.
China's aspirations to empire-building are more insidious than Russia's own has been: instead of spreading a way of life, the Chinese government wish to reclaim territories of influence, making assimilation a historical right and a patient inevitability (from their perspective). |
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chiaa
Joined: 23 Aug 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:33 am Post subject: Re: "The Americans will always do the right thing... |
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| Wangja wrote: |
After they've exhausted all the alternatives."
- Winston Churchill |
I really really like that. Thank you for the laugh. |
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Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:58 am Post subject: |
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Don't thank me, Chiaa, thank Winnie. (Half American btw).
Looks like I shall have to roder that book from you, too ..... |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| Wangja wrote: |
Don't thank me, Chiaa, thank Winnie. (Half American btw).
Looks like I shall have to roder that book from you, too ..... |
RODER?
Joke courtesy of Chronicpride's brain |
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