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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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 Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Listen, man, just because I am not antiEstablishment, it does not mean that I am "controlled by my government." Your reduction of my views to something that makes more sense to your preset positions is a bit annoying.
And, moreover, just because I point to the rabid, hateful, antiAmericanism coming from several parts in the Middle East (do you really believe that it does not exist and that these are peace-loving people?) -- notably those Pakistanis who live along the Afghan-Pakistani border, that does not mean that I am "racist" or "controlled by my government," either.
In the end, however, you are going to believe whatever you want. As for me, "Death to America!" is specific enough. |
Where did I ever say it did "not" exist. I am saying that it is not everybody over there, but you keep blowing up innocent people and you will see the recruiting lines becoming even more full.
You look down upon an "entire" race of people and have no qualms if innocent people who have no choice of where they live die to provide safety for yourself. Dog eat dog world, huh? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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dude, we're talking about ONE village in ONE region.. Not a whole race or nationality. Talk about exaggerating.
I am sure that a lot of Pakistanis in Karachi and Lahore thought, "those wacky tribesmen.... It was bound to happen sooner or later." |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
dude, we're talking about ONE village in ONE region.. Not a whole race or nationality. Talk about exaggerating.
I am sure that a lot of Pakistanis in Karachi and Lahore thought, "those wacky tribesmen.... It was bound to happen sooner or later." |
I'm not. Please reread his posts.
| Quote: |
| ...with some qualifications, because I believe that your use of the words "everyone" and "entire" are a bit sarcastic, and perhaps you don't really mean that, but yes, I believe that this is so, at least in many parts of Afghanistan, Pakistan, and in other places like Saudi Arabia and the Sudan. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
Listen, man, just because I am not antiEstablishment, it does not mean that I am "controlled by my government." Your reduction of my views to something that makes more sense to your preset positions is a bit annoying.
And, moreover, just because I point to the rabid, hateful, antiAmericanism coming from several parts in the Middle East (do you really believe that it does not exist and that these are peace-loving people?) -- notably those Pakistanis who live along the Afghan-Pakistani border, that does not mean that I am "racist" or "controlled by my government," either.
In the end, however, you are going to believe whatever you want. As for me, "Death to America!" is specific enough. |
Where did I ever say it did "not" exist. I am saying that it is not everybody over there, but you keep blowing up innocent people and you will see the recruiting lines becoming even more full.
You look down upon an "entire" race of people and have no qualms if innocent people who have no choice of where they live die to provide safety for yourself. Dog eat dog world, huh? |
He has qualms. He just doesn't agree with your incessant handwringing over some collateral damage.
I agree with him. Those Al Qaeda people needed to die. If the Pashtuns don't like our methods, that's not surprising. Am I looking down on the Pashtuns? Yeah, yeah I am. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
dude, we're talking about ONE village in ONE region.. Not a whole race or nationality. Talk about exaggerating.
I am sure that a lot of Pakistanis in Karachi and Lahore thought, "those wacky tribesmen.... It was bound to happen sooner or later." |
I'm not. Please reread his posts.
| Quote: |
| ...with some qualifications, because I believe that your use of the words "everyone" and "entire" are a bit sarcastic, and perhaps you don't really mean that, but yes, I believe that this is so, at least in many parts of Afghanistan, Pakistan, and in other places like Saudi Arabia and the Sudan. |
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fine, many villages in many regions..
You have too high an opinion of human nature, that's your problem. I don't think you grasp the mindset that some people out there have.
I suggest reading "The Bookseller of Kabul." It provides a good glimpse into a "liberal" family living in Kabul. While I hope, and do think, that there are more western-oriented families in Afghanistan than the one profiled in the book, the fact of the matter is that family is more progressive than most in Afghanistan.
Kuros said it perfectly re:incessant handwringing over some collateral damage. Couldn't have said it better myself. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
dude, we're talking about ONE village in ONE region.. Not a whole race or nationality. Talk about exaggerating.
I am sure that a lot of Pakistanis in Karachi and Lahore thought, "those wacky tribesmen.... It was bound to happen sooner or later." |
I'm not. Please reread his posts.
| Quote: |
| ...with some qualifications, because I believe that your use of the words "everyone" and "entire" are a bit sarcastic, and perhaps you don't really mean that, but yes, I believe that this is so, at least in many parts of Afghanistan, Pakistan, and in other places like Saudi Arabia and the Sudan. |
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fine, many villages in many regions..
You have too high an opinion of human nature, that's your problem. I don't think you grasp the mindset that some people out there have.
I suggest reading "The Bookseller of Kabul." It provides a good glimpse into a "liberal" family living in Kabul. While I hope, and do think, that there are more western-oriented families in Afghanistan than the one profiled in the book, the fact of the matter is that family is more progressive than most in Afghanistan.
Kuros said it perfectly re:incessant handwringing over some collateral damage. Couldn't have said it better myself. |
Collateral damage... And people wonder why the rest of the world has problems with America. I have met Pakistani families (well, only two from Karachi, and a few pakistani men) and they were no different that us (really, they wore the same clothing, talked in the same way, and other than not eating pork, I could have easily just assumed they were Canadian). |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:54 am Post subject: |
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I'm not done either. I couldn't care less about America now, this is not about them, as there are people like this in all countries.
I met a wonderful Pakistani family in Beijing on a tour. They sat next to us (my mother, who came to visit China and me) at lunch and started conversation (well, mostly the older sister, the younger sister's English wasn't to good, and the father's was OK). After they asked, "You're from America, right? We said no, Canada". They assumed we were American throughout the entire conversation and nothing was brought up about politics or America in general. I am still in contact with the older sister whom I consider a friend. The second family I met was in Japan, tourists. They were actually going on about how with the Taliban gone things might change around there. So much for your every fricken Pakistani hates America! I have also met two Pakistani workers in China. Do you know what all of these people talked about more. India, America was barely even brought up. India is much more on their minds than America. I learned a lot about the Indian and Pakistani languages (how different they are) and a bit about the politics between the two. Things are getting much better between the two too, which is good. So they aren't all alike, though I wouldn't expect some people to actually have a conversation with them as they seem to think they are better.
And calling innocent children collateral damage sickens me, but maybe I expect too much of human beings in general. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 4:10 am Post subject: |
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| Collateral damage... And people wonder why the rest of the world has problems with America. |
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| And calling innocent children collateral damage sickens me, but maybe I expect too much of human beings in general. |
Oh yeah, you have a heart, and you really care.
But listen, try to see it from an American's perspective for once. I mean, you're filling this thread with all this garbage about people being equal and respecting peoples' perspectives (and then throwing in a jibe or two about how every American is being force fed by the administration  ), so try to squelch down a morsel or two that might not be so self-serving.
Why should I feel bad that my government, trying to protect my family and my friends from a massive chemical/biological/nuclear threat, targets a house that did at one point have Al Qaeda members in it? And then got them?
The children really are collateral damage. That doesn't mean they are meaningless or they deserved to die, but it means that when you're trying to strike certain people you sometimes kill some others.
Gopher explained the difficulties of the situation. You know, sometimes when you're fighting a child picks up a gun, and you have to pick them off. Sometimes you bomb a building where you have good reason/intelligence to think some hostiles are, and some family gets fried. It's complicated, and the kinds of things the JAGs and American commanders on the ground have to decide are not easy questions.
Anyway, you're trying to cast around this moral guilt or blame for the sake of the children, but it doesn't help keep my family safe, at least not as much as killing those Al Qaeda members did. You have to understand that I am against those Pashtuns because they are harboring our enemies, and that if a couple of their children are killed, I'm not going to cry about it. If you can't understand that I don't think you understand jack-sh*t about any the cultures you're talking about outside of Europe or Canada. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 4:31 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Collateral damage... And people wonder why the rest of the world has problems with America. |
| Quote: |
| And calling innocent children collateral damage sickens me, but maybe I expect too much of human beings in general. |
Oh yeah, you have a heart, and you really care. |
I know it's hard to believe nowadays, but ya, I do
| Quote: |
But listen, try to see it from an American's perspective for once. I mean, you're filling this thread with all this garbage about people being equal and respecting peoples' perspectives (and then throwing in a jibe or two about how every American is being force fed by the administration ), so try to squelch down a morsel or two that might not be so self-serving.
Why should I feel bad that my government, trying to protect my family and my friends from a massive chemical/biological/nuclear threat, targets a house that did at one point have Al Qaeda members in it? And then got them?
The children really are collateral damage. That doesn't mean they are meaningless or they deserved to die, but it means that when you're trying to strike certain people you sometimes kill some others.
Gopher explained the difficulties of the situation. You know, sometimes when you're fighting a child picks up a gun, and you have to pick them off. Sometimes you bomb a building where you have good reason/intelligence to think some hostiles are, and some family gets fried. It's complicated, and the kinds of things the JAGs and American commanders on the ground have to decide are not easy questions.
Anyway, you're trying to cast around this moral guilt or blame for the sake of the children, but it doesn't help keep my family safe, at least not as much as killing those Al Qaeda members did. You have to understand that I am against those Pashtuns because they are harboring our enemies, and that if a couple of their children are killed, I'm not going to cry about it. If you can't understand that I don't think you understand jack-sh*t about any the cultures you're talking about outside of Europe or Canada. |
For one, I have stood up for America against others when I feel they are being treated unfairly. Check my posts. I will argue against Canadians for America when they are being idiots.
Second, what don't you get? 5 innoncent Pakistani kids for your 5 (or however many) innocent kids. The only problem is, the Pakistani kids dying was a 100% chance. Your kids dying is much less. It's playing the odds. I am pretty sure if this guy was in a building in America and somehow your children were being used as human shields, and they sent in the SWAT team to take them out, I have no doubt you would be up in arms about it. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:02 am Post subject: |
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| For one, I have stood up for America against others when I feel they are being treated unfairly. Check my posts. I will argue against Canadians for America when they are being idiots. |
I'm not accusing you of being anti-American at all. I know better.
| Quote: |
| Second, what don't you get? 5 innoncent Pakistani kids for your 5 (or however many) innocent kids. The only problem is, the Pakistani kids dying was a 100% chance. Your kids dying is much less. It's playing the odds. I am pretty sure if this guy was in a building in America and somehow your children were being used as human shields, and they sent in the SWAT team to take them out, I have no doubt you would be up in arms about it. |
I'll say this much, I wish the airstrike could have killed all these wierd analogies being thrown about instead of those kids.
The analogy doesn't hold because these guys were not in a building in America and are instead holing up in villages in outland Pakistan where people are sympathetic to them. The children were either children of people sympathetic to Al Qaeda, or relatives to Al Qaeda. This is the central point. If I were to join or associate with an organization that targets children (the key word here being explicitly target), I should expect that I would by doing so be putting my children in harm's way (although I should not necessarily expect that my children be in turn targetted themselves). |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
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| For one, I have stood up for America against others when I feel they are being treated unfairly. Check my posts. I will argue against Canadians for America when they are being idiots. |
I'm not accusing you of being anti-American at all. I know better.
| Quote: |
| Second, what don't you get? 5 innoncent Pakistani kids for your 5 (or however many) innocent kids. The only problem is, the Pakistani kids dying was a 100% chance. Your kids dying is much less. It's playing the odds. I am pretty sure if this guy was in a building in America and somehow your children were being used as human shields, and they sent in the SWAT team to take them out, I have no doubt you would be up in arms about it. |
I'll say this much, I wish the airstrike could have killed all these wierd analogies being thrown about instead of those kids.
The analogy doesn't hold because these guys were not in a building in America and are instead holing up in villages in outland Pakistan where people are sympathetic to them. The children were either children of people sympathetic to Al Qaeda, or relatives to Al Qaeda. This is the central point. If I were to join or associate with an organization that targets children (the key word here being explicitly target), I should expect that I would by doing so be putting my children in harm's way (although I should not necessarily expect that my children be in turn targetted themselves). |
The scary thing is I am sure there are terrorists in the States and people who are sympathetic to them, just bidding (sp?) their time. To think differently would be unwise and dangerous. And yes, that is scary to me cause I don't want to see anyone die. But that analogy is not so far off. I HONESTLY hope to high hell we don't have to see how my analogy works out, but it is possible. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| I have met Pakistani families (well, only two from Karachi, and a few pakistani men) and they were no different that us (really, they wore the same clothing, talked in the same way, and other than not eating pork, I could have easily just assumed they were Canadian). |
Hence my previous comment:
I am sure that a lot of Pakistanis in Karachi and Lahore thought, "those wacky tribesmen.... It was bound to happen sooner or later."
Who is generalizing all Pakistanis?? I sure am not. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 10:37 am Post subject: |
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That children died was regrettable in the extreme.
I'm sure that if they knew then what they know now, those who ordered the strike would have waited until the people were clear, or cancelled/postponed the attack, or have chosen a different method (one that perhaps would have meant less chance of collateral damage but would have put allies at risk).
Laolaogaiguk, I'm not sure what answer any of us could give that would satisfy you, or for that matter, what action the US could take that would satisfy you.
Simply not fighting al Qaeda because there is the strong liklihood in the future that more civilians will die (and some of them will be children) is unfortunately not an option. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| I met a wonderful Pakistani family in Beijing on a tour. They sat next to us (my mother, who came to visit China and me) at lunch and started conversation (well, mostly the older sister, the younger sister's English wasn't to good, and the father's was OK). After they asked, "You're from America, right? We said no, Canada". They assumed we were American throughout the entire conversation and nothing was brought up about politics or America in general. I am still in contact with the older sister whom I consider a friend. The second family I met was in Japan, tourists. |
Pakistani tourists in China and Japan. Hardly representative of the average Pakistani. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| Collateral damage... And people wonder why the rest of the world has problems with America. |
We did not invent the term, nor the phenomenon it describes.
But when people like you single us out for it and say things like "no wonder the rest of the world has problems with America" it does not surprise me in the least.
| Quote: |
| I have met Pakistani families (well, only two from Karachi, and a few pakistani men) and they were no different that us (really, they wore the same clothing, talked in the same way, and other than not eating pork, I could have easily just assumed they were Canadian). |
Bigverne is right. And you keep saying this. You need to qualify this.
On a tour in Beijing? for a day or two?
Did you live in Pakistan, with a typical family, in the region we are discussing? like in a study abroad situation, for a semester or an academic year?
Or did you meet high-class, educated and English-fluent, world-travelling Pakistanis and now you are saying that they are representative of all Pakistanis.
Did you meet them at places like Disneyland, where, as tourists, they were probably on their best behavior? or did you meet them in their homeland, where they were speaking their own language and acting according to different rules?
Because if it is as I suspect, you are almost certainly way off base. And you are no more or less informed on this region than I am. When I meet Chileans in the U.S., for instance, they tend to be rather quiet and shy, friendly and polite. When I meet Chileans in Chile, they tend to be extremely critical, self-righteous, and quite stubborn, difficult to deal with. That is, except for the well-educated, well-travelled ones. These are the same from most countries, all over the world. That's why I have no problem believing you when you say the Pakistanis you met could easily have been from Canada -- education, foreign language fluency, and the financial ability to travel has that effect on people.
To cite another example: I knew a Korean woman, an English teacher, and a rather fanatical born-again Christian, who went off on a mission to P.I. several years ago. One of those she wanted to convert was a Pakistani worker who was living there. He raped her repeatedly. She did not report this, and she kept going back to him to try to convert him, because she had tremendous personal problems of her own, and he kept raping her. When she broke it off and threatened to tell her husband, this wonderful Pakistani man poured gasoline all over himself and said he was going to light himself on fire if she didn't stay. (And when he found out, her husband treated her worse, and that explains her life now as a U.S. soldier's live-in girlfriend.)
So, again:
(a) Is your experience in Beijing and Tokyo your only experience with "the Pakistani people"?
(b) Have you met any from or even been to the border region we are discussing? |
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