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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| The title of the thread makes its own case. |
That's right, I posted an article that argued that Iran was provoking everyone else, so I chose a title to reflect that opinion. I thought 'Why Iran has it coming,' was a grabbing title, and apparently I was right in my decision to post it, as at least you feel the compulsion to keep topping my thread. Thanks for that by the way.
My own feeling is that attacking Iran would be deeply regrettable and lead to all sorts of problems. Bulsajo seems to think it is a trap, and Joo thinks there is a better way. I'm open to these opinions. What I find laughable is the idea that because I was wrong about going to war in Iraq, that I am therefore out of line to advocate military action against any other state ever. I think you'll find that many people are inclined to the position that the situation with Iran is a little different from the run up to the Iraq war three-four years ago.
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| Now you might say that's just speculation, but so is all of this nonsense about Iran becoming empowered to invade countries because it gets a nuke. |
Okay, so I'll provide an article from the WashPost that details some of the evidence. (Editted to fix url function)
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Iranian engineers have completed sophisticated drawings of a deep subterranean shaft, according to officials who have examined classified documents in the hands of U.S. intelligence for more than 20 months.
Complete with remote-controlled sensors to measure pressure and heat, the plans for the 400-meter tunnel appear designed for an underground atomic test that might one day announce Tehran's arrival as a nuclear power, the officials said.
"The diagram is consistent with a nuclear test-site schematic," one senior U.S. source said, noting that the drawings envision a test control team parked a safe 10 kilometers -- more than six miles -- from the shaft. As far as U.S. intelligence knows, the idea has not left the drawing board. |
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Contained in a laptop computer stolen by an Iranian citizen in 2004 are designs by a firm called Kimeya Madon for a small-scale facility to produce uranium gas, the construction of which would give Iran a secret stock that could be enriched for fuel or for bombs. Also on the laptop -- obtained by U.S. intelligence -- were drawings on modifying Iran's ballistic missiles in ways that might accommodate a nuclear warhead. Beyond the computer files, an imprisoned Pakistani arms dealer recently offered uncorroborated statements that Iran received several advanced centrifuges, equipment that would vastly improve its nuclear knowledge.
U.S. intelligence considers the laptop documents authentic but cannot prove it.... British intelligence, asked for a second opinion, concurred last year that the documents appear authentic. German and French officials consider the information troubling, sources said, but Russian experts have dismissed it as inconclusive. IAEA inspectors, who were highly skeptical of U.S. intelligence on Iraq, have begun to pursue aspects of the laptop information that appear to bolster previous leads. |
Here's your nobel prize winner, Nowhere Man, and his assessment.
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| Mohamed ElBaradei, the director general of the IAEA, said that after three years of investigation, he still cannot judge Iran's program "exclusively peaceful." At the same time, Iran is "not an imminent threat," he said in a recent interview. "To develop a nuclear weapon, you need a significant quantity of highly enriched uranium or plutonium, and no one has seen that in Iran." |
So the smoking gun according to El Baradei would be a 'significant quantity of highly enriched uranium.' I want to emphasize this, because I don't want to be called a warmonger should we find some and I make a thread about it later.
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In the spring of 2001, a small design firm opened shop on the outskirts of Tehran to begin work for what appears to have been its only client -- the Iranian Republican Guard. Over the next two years, the staff at Kimeya Madon completed a set of technical drawings for a small uranium-conversion facility, according to four officials who reviewed the documents.
Iran has one such conversion plant and opened it to IAEA inspectors, but Tehran has not disclosed or produced the blueprints of a second one.
Several sources with firsthand knowledge of the original documents said the facility, if constructed, would give Iran additional capabilities to produce a substance known as UF4, or "green salt," an intermediate product in the conversion of uranium to a gas. Further refined in a large-scale enrichment plant, such as the one Iran says it intends to build for its energy program, the material could become usable for the core of a bomb.
Some of those who described the documents said senior Bush administration officials believe that they offer proof of a covert Iranian effort, under the direction of the military, to acquire nuclear weapons. The documents were found with design modifications for Iran's ballistic missile program, suggesting a link between potential weapons material and delivery systems. "We see this as pretty compelling evidence that they were trying to get a clandestine uranium-conversion facility," said one U.S. official. "At the very least, the Iranians should have reported the work" to IAEA inspectors, the official said. |
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When the CIA began poring over thousands of pages of drawings contained in the laptop, the ones that garnered immediate attention were the schematics for Iran's most famous missile, the Shahab -- Persian for "shooting star."
Experts at Sandia National Laboratories in New Mexico ran the schematics through computer simulations. They determined two things: The drawings were an effort to expand the nose cone of the Shahab-3 to carry a nuclear warhead, and the modification plans, if executed, would not work.
"It's not hard evidence, but if you want to bring a building down, you don't need this kind of detonation," said one investigator. "So it's either for missiles or for a nuclear detonation."
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One thing is for certain, Iran is not dead set on making it appear as if they don't have a nuclear weapons program. And this may only be further support for Bulsajo's theory that a lot of this is a trap being set by Iran for the US and Israel.
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In addition to supplies Iran purchased from the network in the late 1980s to begin its nuclear program, Tahir said, Iran was sent in the mid-1990s three advanced, Pakistani-made centrifuges that could be used as models for manufacturing more. Thousands of properly constructed and assembled P-2 generation centrifuges could improve Iran's ability to make bomb-grade uranium. If the P-2s exist in Iran, as Tahir asserted, intelligence officials said the centrifuges could shorten the time needed for Iran to build a weapon.
Iran has told inspectors that it received only drawings of the P-2s, not the centrifuges themselves, and that it did not build any. A recent IAEA report determined that Iran has not been forthcoming on the P-2s or its dealings with Tahir and Khan, who led Pakistan to nuclear success. |
I think there's room for doubt on this, Nowhere Man, but Iran has definitely left us with a debate. And, Nowhere Man, if you wish to provide evidence for a ROK or Japanese nuclear program in this thread I for one will not consider it off-topic. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure that 'trap' is exactly how I view it, although it certainly has that dimension.
I don't think Iran is plotting an entrapment so much as they see that- as George Friedman points out- by travelling this path they are most likely to acheive their goals regardless of what the US/Israel/Europe/UN decide to do- they get a win-win situation while putting the US and Israel in a "damned if we do, damned we don't" one.
So then it's not really a "WTF is Iran doing?" analysis but a "well, why wouldn't they be doing this?" one. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:40 am Post subject: ... |
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Note: I wrote a long post that got killed by the logout function. I HATE THAT.
Will post again when I have the time. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:08 am Post subject: |
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Iraq Pre-War Intel A 'Hoax On The American People'
Colin Powell's Former Chief Of Staff Wilkerson Calls Pre-War Intelligence
A 'Hoax On The American People'
NOW/PBS
2-6-6
Powell's Former Chief of Staff Lawrence Wilkerson Calls Pre-War Intelligence a 'Hoax on the American People' Tonight on PBS Program 'NOW' Friday February 3, 12:19 pm ET
NEW YORK, Feb. 3 /PRNewswire/ -- In an interview airing tonight on the PBS weekly newsmagazine NOW, Colin Powell's former Chief of Staff Lawrence Wilkerson makes the startling claim that much of Powell's landmark speech to the United Nations laying out the Bush Administration's case for the Iraq war was false.
"I participated in a hoax on the American people, the international community, and the United Nations Security Council," says Wilkerson, who helped prepare the address.
The NOW report, which airs days before the third anniversary of Powell's speech, examines the serious doubts that existed about the key evidence being used by the American government at the very time Powell's speech was being planned and delivered.
"I recall vividly the Secretary of State ( Powell ) walking into my office," Wilkerson tells NOW. "He said: 'I wonder what will happen if we put half a million troops on the ground in Iraq and comb the country from one end to the other and don't find a single weapon of mass destruction?'"
In fact, no weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq.
_____
NOW, hosted by David Brancaccio, airs Friday nights at
8:30 on PBS (check local listings).
Press Contact - Rick Byrne
NOW
Ph: 212.560.8406
Email: [email protected] |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| igotaguitar-shapedtumorinmyheadwhichpreventsmefromusinglogic wrote: |
| Iraq Pre-War Intel A 'Hoax On The American People' |
I know you are mentally and emotionally challenged (not to mention only semi-literate and probably a congenital bed-wetter), so allow me to point out the obvious to you:
The article you posted deals with IRAQ.
This thread is a discussion on IRAN your article makes absolutely no mention of IRAN.
And no, that article is not important enough to post multiple times throughout various threads in the Current Events Forum- we call that SPAMMING. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
know you are mentally and emotionally challenged (not to mention only semi-literate and probably a congenital bed-wetter), so allow me to point out the obvious to you:
The article you posted deals with IRAQ.
This thread is a discussion on IRAN your article makes absolutely no mention of IRA[u]N[/u].
And no, that article is not important enough to post multiple times throughout various threads in the Current Events Forum- we call that SPAMMING. |
BULLY ...
While i may still wet the bed, REASON, not name-calling, is my one true obsession.
As you clearly fail to see the connection, let me help you on this one:
1) Iraq; 2) Iran; 3) Syria ... although what we might see in the end is two & three reversed.
So as you see, my reason for posting was in fact more "related" to thread than even the phony false pretense for the Crusading Bush White House's middle east Armaggedon kickoff.
Who btw is WE?  |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
1) Iraq; 2) Iran; 3) Syria ... although what we might see in the end is two & three reversed.
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Bullshit.
Let's see you back up your excuse with reasoning- show us EXACTLY how this post on Powell's former Chief of Staff directly relates to the discussion of Iran in this thread.
That's not at all a hard challenge- I'm sure many people posting in this thread could do it, but frankly I'd be pretty to surprised to hear that you could- you have shown absolutely no capability for evaluating the information come across as you stumble through the internet. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:41 am Post subject: |
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That's weird. OF ALL the words you would think would be CENSORED, bullshit for some reason isn't ... hmmmmm ...
alrighty then ...
| Bulsajo wrote: |
| Let's see you back up your excuse with reasoning- show us EXACTLY how this post on Powell's former Chief of Staff directly relates to the discussion of Iran in this thread. |
Why didn't you read the article? Don't take my word for it; HE's the one saying this.
Yes, as much as you may HATE to hear it, "the word" he's clearing using to describe the debacle is HOAX.
Two words really
Directly relate? Sure. Two words "FALSE" ( or otherwise faulty ) INTELLIGENCE 
It's what was felt was necessary to "justify" occupation of the region, starting with Afghanistan. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks for proving my point. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| as I said on another thread about another poster: even acknowledging his posts gives him too much credit Bulsajo. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| You're right of course. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:59 am Post subject: Just admit it, Ahmadinejad is a whack-job! |
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Ahmadinejad: Israel 'will be removed'
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"We ask the West to remove what they created sixty years ago and if they do not listen to our recommendations, then the Palestinian nation and other nations will eventually do this for them," Ahmadinejad said in a ceremony marking the 27th anniversary of the Islamic revolution.
"Do the removal of Israel before it is too late and save yourself from the fury of regional nations," the ultra-conservative president said. He once again called the Holocaust a "fairy tale" and said Europeans have become hostages of "Zionists" in Israel.
He also accused Europeans for not allowing "neutral scholars" to investigate in Europe and make a scientific report on "the truth about the fairy tale of Holocaust."
"How comes that insulting the prophet of Muslims worldwide is justified within the framework of press freedom, but investigating about the fairy tale Holocaust is not?" Ahmadinejad said.
"The real Holocaust is what is happening in Palestine where the Zionists avail themselves of the fairy tale of Holocaust as blackmail and justification for killing children and women and making innocent people homeless," Ahmadinejad said. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:08 am Post subject: |
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Sounds a lot like igotthisguitar's opinion of the Holocaust.
"Ernst Zundel, neutral scholar. The scholar is IN."
Has Ahmadinejad proclaimed 9/11 a CIA/Mossad operation yet? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:18 am Post subject: Re: Just admit it, Ahmadinejad is a whack-job! |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Ahmadinejad: Israel 'will be removed'
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"We ask the West to remove what they created sixty years ago and if they do not listen to our recommendations, then the Palestinian nation and other nations will eventually do this for them," Ahmadinejad said in a ceremony marking the 27th anniversary of the Islamic revolution.
"Do the removal of Israel before it is too late and save yourself from the fury of regional nations," the ultra-conservative president said. He once again called the Holocaust a "fairy tale" and said Europeans have become hostages of "Zionists" in Israel.
He also accused Europeans for not allowing "neutral scholars" to investigate in Europe and make a scientific report on "the truth about the fairy tale of Holocaust."
"How comes that insulting the prophet of Muslims worldwide is justified within the framework of press freedom, but investigating about the fairy tale Holocaust is not?" Ahmadinejad said.
"The real Holocaust is what is happening in Palestine where the Zionists avail themselves of the fairy tale of Holocaust as blackmail and justification for killing children and women and making innocent people homeless," Ahmadinejad said. |
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Gotta love those populists.
I think populism is one of the most damaging ideologies out there. Just look at what it has done to Latin America and some Arab countries. Rather sad. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
Sounds a lot like igotthisguitar's opinion of the Holocaust.
"Ernst Zundel, neutral scholar. The scholar is IN." |
Thanks, you just reminded me of two things: 1 ) Any reasonable person's opinions are subject to change,
and 2 ) No critical discussion of ZION-ism ( and its historical roots ) allowed 
You REALLY want to get sidetracked with an "honest" and open historical discussion of that here? I don't think so. Assuming you can be honest, try & stay focused on "the ball" ... Bully, the ball ( here, lemmee try & draw your attention back to the crux: "INTEL HOAX" )
| Bulsajo wrote: |
Has Ahmadinejad proclaimed 9/11 a CIA/Mossad operation yet? |
Uh, no ... don't think so; but he has said he knows you Masons love to forever obfuscate
Their President is likely a stooge of the Illuminati anyways. He certainly wouldn't be the first in history.
What do they call these kinda ding-dongs? "Useful" idiots ...
Last edited by igotthisguitar on Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:05 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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