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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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 Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| pest1 wrote: |
| dbee wrote: |
... or maybe it's because Koreans consider you as a babysitter.
IMO expecting to get paid more as you gain experience is only reasonable if you work in a career-orientated job. ESL is not a career, it's casual labor. The older and more 'experienced' you get, the less marketable you become.
Guys with all the qualifications and years and years of experience are working in the same pay-grade as newbies fresh off the plane. There is no ladder in ESL. Hence, it's not a career.
That's why I take a dim view of putting your hard-earned cash into CELTA courses and like. You won't get a return - at least in financial terms. |
Which is why you need to try to get into management level. With a TESOL or equivalent degree, you are more likely to be eligible for positions such as DOS and Academic managers and so on, which surprisingly could pay a lot of money. Besides, if you don't want to be stuck in Asia forever, there are many teaching jobs in Europe that require a TESOL certificate. |
Pardon my ignorance, but what is a DOS and what does an Academic Manager do? I've never heard of these positions and wonder if their are any foreigners in Korea doing these things. All I'm aware of are hagwon owners, school officials, university directors (all Korean), recruiters (99% Korean -- not sure if EFL experience is more important than business wits), and English teachers (foreign & Korean).
Beyond those two positions that I'm unfamiliar with, what are some "management level" EFL jobs in Korea that a foreigner teacher might reasonably pursue? (short of owning/running a hagwon) |
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Homer
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| IMO expecting to get paid more as you gain experience is only reasonable if you work in a career-orientated job. ESL is not a career, it's casual labor. The older and more 'experienced' you get, the less marketable you become. |
This remains true for transient teachers who put only minimum effort into their jobs.
Others see the bigger picture and improve themselves through courses, reading and experience. Just accumulating time in coutry is not worth much. You need to maximise that time and get a track record that stands out. Also, you need to learn about the market here to know where and when to look for the better jobs.
Advancement is quite possible here, for some ESL can easily become a very lucrative career by either staying here or moving on to other ESL markets.
I have been here since 1997 and I have gotten pay raises and improvements in working conditions every year after the second. I know many other long-timers who have also progressed along similar lines.
Of course, if you just buy into the dumb idea that this is all paid clown/babysitter work...then..sorry but that is all you will end up being. |
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Corporal
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:20 am Post subject: |
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| Real Reality wrote: |
| I have been well-informed by Koreans about Korea and Koreans. I have had several Koreans tell me to be very careful in dealing with Koreans. They have emphatically told me DO NOT TRUST Koreans. |
So you trust Koreans who tell you not to trust Koreans? |
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weatherman
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| JongnoGuru wrote: |
| Pardon my ignorance, but what is a DOS and what does an Academic Manager do? |
DOS: Director of Studies & an Academic Manager are closely related. They build the curriculum and make sure it is implemented by the teachers. Teacher development, resouce development, hiring, scheduling, quality control are all parts of this job.
Last edited by weatherman on Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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fusionbarnone
Joined: 31 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:32 am Post subject: |
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In my opinion, everything eventually boils down to cold hard cash whether your dealing with homies back home or Koreans. Everyone(there are few exceptions) are thinking of anyone else but their own advantage. If a Korean boss(or, anyone for that matter) accurately anticipates one will settle for maintaining the status que(boss' uninhibited cash flow) who could argue. The concepts of "friends", "loyalty", yada yada, are little more than lip-service to sway the foreigner to "accept" less. Get professional(i.e, getting paid: dineros in-hand; not fairy dust or, bean stalk beans).
Either, demand, or look elsewhere. Respect should be your expectation for long term service. If possible and if you are up to it(psyched) treat your boss to a lunch at a 4,000 won joint(read cheap for your pocket's sake with unlimited H2O) and try to renegotiate a better deal. Read a few scam-busters sites to gain an insight into the minds of crooks, organize your spiel, guilt trip/s, sound effects, and acting in an attempt to influence a change for the better. One unhappy year seems like a really really long stint otherwise. |
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Real Reality
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| Corporal wrote: |
| Real Reality wrote: |
| I have been well-informed by Koreans about Korea and Koreans. I have had several Koreans tell me to be very careful in dealing with Koreans. They have emphatically told me DO NOT TRUST Koreans. |
So you trust Koreans who tell you not to trust Koreans? |
A Country of Liars
by Kim Dae-joong, Chosun Ilbo (July 3, 2005)
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200507/200507030027.html |
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dbee
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Location: korea
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:24 am Post subject: |
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Of course, if you just buy into the dumb idea that this is all paid clown/babysitter work...then..sorry but that is all you will end up being.
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... no need to apologize. I appreciate someone who has pride in their work. I'm also not saying that cash is the only measure by which you can judge career advancement. But I'm too realistic to take the line that getting a $500 a year pay raise or getting better hours, constitutes a career path.
I'm an excellent teacher. I've had great references from every job I've worked at. But at the same time I'm realistic. Teaching kids in a hogwon setting isn't a career path.
Teaching conversation English in a Korean public school or university isn't a career move either - unless you have the qualifications to back it up. It doesn't matter how many books you read. No-one in the west will consider your teaching experience in Korea as a major resume plus.
When it comes down to it - you or I can be replaced by any newbie off the plane if the need arises. It ain't pretty, but it's true. And yes, you can move on to Saudi Arabia and earn more money. That's just a place where they pay more money for English teachers. I wouldn't say that it constitutes a career path IMO
On the other hand, if you're using your time as a teacher here to study and gain real career qualifications. Then more power to you and I wish you all the best of luck.
Last edited by dbee on Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:46 am Post subject: |
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Quote:
IMO expecting to get paid more as you gain experience is only reasonable if you work in a career-orientated job. ESL is not a career, it's casual labor. The older and more 'experienced' you get, the less marketable you become.
This remains true for transient teachers who put only minimum effort into their jobs.
Others see the bigger picture and improve themselves through courses, reading and experience. Just accumulating time in coutry is not worth much. You need to maximise that time and get a track record that stands out. Also, you need to learn about the market here to know where and when to look for the better jobs.
Advancement is quite possible here, for some ESL can easily become a very lucrative career by either staying here or moving on to other ESL markets.
I have been here since 1997 and I have gotten pay raises and improvements in working conditions every year after the second. I know many other long-timers who have also progressed along similar lines.
Of course, if you just buy into the dumb idea that this is all paid clown/babysitter work...then..sorry but that is all you will end up being. |
Not entirely true! Unless you have the support of the administration and are rewarded for improving the curriculum, becoming a better teacher than often you are treated as a second class citizen at best and a trained monkey in the classroom at worst.
So you have recieved pay raises and improvments in working conditions every year. Great! How may of those raises have come at the same school? How many schools have you worked at since 1997?
I experienced a tremendous amount of frustration in dealing with admin and the curriculum they put forth. Telling me that I was not to teach reading and writing only speaking and listening....thats like telling a boxer to fight with one hand behind his back! They would come forth with waste of time ideas that served no purpose other than advertising(phone teaching for one) and expect the FT to happily accept and implement their insanity.
Do your schools listen to you on implementing curriculum Homer? Choosing which system would best benefit the students? Use accurate level testing and then put the students into those classes or do they just slap them into whatever class fits their time schedule?
Some FT's who have been here for a while know the reality, some choose to view Korea through rose coloured glasses in order to avoid/escape the reality. Kind of like the disfunctional family where the mother always says "everythings fine...its just fine"
If you have a job where you are treated as an equal, where your opinion is valued and listened to and where you recieve the same, if not better, benefits as your contemporaries then great! You are a beacon of hope!
IF NOT...............
Then dance monkey dance! |
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pest1
Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| JongnoGuru wrote: |
| pest1 wrote: |
| dbee wrote: |
... or maybe it's because Koreans consider you as a babysitter.
IMO expecting to get paid more as you gain experience is only reasonable if you work in a career-orientated job. ESL is not a career, it's casual labor. The older and more 'experienced' you get, the less marketable you become.
Guys with all the qualifications and years and years of experience are working in the same pay-grade as newbies fresh off the plane. There is no ladder in ESL. Hence, it's not a career.
That's why I take a dim view of putting your hard-earned cash into CELTA courses and like. You won't get a return - at least in financial terms. |
Which is why you need to try to get into management level. With a TESOL or equivalent degree, you are more likely to be eligible for positions such as DOS and Academic managers and so on, which surprisingly could pay a lot of money. Besides, if you don't want to be stuck in Asia forever, there are many teaching jobs in Europe that require a TESOL certificate. |
Pardon my ignorance, but what is a DOS and what does an Academic Manager do? I've never heard of these positions and wonder if their are any foreigners in Korea doing these things. All I'm aware of are hagwon owners, school officials, university directors (all Korean), recruiters (99% Korean -- not sure if EFL experience is more important than business wits), and English teachers (foreign & Korean).
Beyond those two positions that I'm unfamiliar with, what are some "management level" EFL jobs in Korea that a foreigner teacher might reasonably pursue? (short of owning/running a hagwon) |
Man if you wanna be stuck in KOREA FOREVER it is your choice. There are loads of other jobs outside KOREA. Check the international job forum on DAVES, there are many management positions. I know this is a KOREA forum, but it doesn't mean I can not give advice about getting jobs outside KOREA. If some people feel like they are not getting anywhere teaching in KOREA, why can't they try get a job elsewhere in the EFL field that will actually get them somewhere. KOREA is not the entire EFL world, guru.
Last edited by pest1 on Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:56 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Corporal
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:54 am Post subject: |
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| Real Reality wrote: |
| Corporal wrote: |
| Real Reality wrote: |
| I have been well-informed by Koreans about Korea and Koreans. I have had several Koreans tell me to be very careful in dealing with Koreans. They have emphatically told me DO NOT TRUST Koreans. |
So you trust Koreans who tell you not to trust Koreans? |
A Country of Liars
by Kim Dae-joong, Chosun Ilbo (July 3, 2005)
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200507/200507030027.html |
So again, are Koreans lying when they tell you that all Koreans are liars? |
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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:11 am Post subject: |
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| pest1 wrote: |
| Man if you wanna be stuck in KOREA FOREVER it is your choice. There are loads of other jobs outside KOREA. Check the international job forum on DAVES, there are many management positions. I know this is a KOREA forum, but it doesn't mean I can not give advice about getting jobs outside KOREA. If some people feel like they are not getting anywhere teaching in KOREA, why can't they try get a job elsewhere in the EFL field that will actually get them somewhere. KOREA is not the entire EFL world, guru. |
Okay. Thanks.  Just so we're clear, I wasn't asking from an "oh yeah? prove it!" standpoint, but merely out of disinterested (detached, nonpartisan -- I'm not in the EFL business) curiosity. |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:53 am Post subject: |
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Oh Grotto...if you must know...
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| So you have recieved pay raises and improvments in working conditions every year. Great! How may of those raises have come at the same school? How many schools have you worked at since 1997? |
How many of those raises have come at the same school (3)
How many schools have you worked at since 1997 (5)
Hope this helps you out Grotto..don't know how relevant it is but hey...happy to help ya out buddy.
Part two of your enquiry,
| Quote: |
| Do your schools listen to you on implementing curriculum Homer? Choosing which system would best benefit the students? Use accurate level testing and then put the students into those classes or do they just slap them into whatever class fits their time schedule? |
Most schools have listenned to me concerning curriculmum and improvement in the system to be used to benefit students.
Then again, before storming into the office of my boss like a madman and starting preaching that my way was better, I did my homework, did some research and reading and put together a presentation backed up with teaching materials and examples. Sometimes it took more than one attempt to get things done and the help of other teachers (this also required convincing). But guess what Grotto, I had to do the same when I was a teacher in Ontario and the retarded education reforms came down the pipe from the ministy of education....
At my second hakwon, when I had learned how the system works here, I did manage to convince my employer that he would get better results with effective level tests and class groupings by the resulting levels. Since then, all of the schools I have worked at have had this way of doing things. Not necessarily because of me but also because...and this will shock you grotto, I looked for jobs where such practices were common...wow...what a concept eh Grotto?
Now your for habitual rant, shot, or flight off the handle...
| Quote: |
| Some FT's who have been here for a while know the reality, some choose to view Korea through rose coloured glasses in order to avoid/escape the reality. Kind of like the disfunctional family where the mother always says "everythings fine...its just fine" |
Amusing.
Which so called glasses are better Grotto (not that I wear any rose tinted shades...even if you so want to beleive I do)? The pink ones or the coal black ones you wear?
I know the reality of the ESL market here. This is why I learned the ropes and researched jobs where I could find development and opportunity. Those jobs are out there and they do exist. I choose to try and get them as opposed to any job that falls into my lap with a raise only. I quite know that many schools are run badly and care not one iota about education...but..guess what Grotto...I avoid those! Wow...another novel concept. Many of the long-timers I know work along similar lines...heck we must all be wearing rose tinted glasses right Grotto?
Finally...the attempt at poetry or a strong ending...
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If you have a job where you are treated as an equal, where your opinion is valued and listened to and where you recieve the same, if not better, benefits as your contemporaries then great! You are a beacon of hope!
IF NOT...............
Then dance monkey dance! |
I do and only an idiot who does not have any drive or desire to work as a professional lets himself work in babysitting factories for more than a year. |
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dbee
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Location: korea
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:48 am Post subject: |
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I do and only an idiot who does not have any drive or desire to work as a professional lets himself work in babysitting factories for more than a year.
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... hey now - don't knock babysitting factories
I too, put any new school through it's paces before I sign on the dotted line.
I'll ask probing questions like
How much do you pay ?
Can I read a newspaper during kindergarten class ?
Can I bring some crayons and paper home to do my own drawings ?
Does falling asleep in the teachers room after class count as overtime ?
Can I date the Korean teachers ?
Am I allowed put the kids in physical restraints ?
I admire your fortitude Homer, I really do. But I think you're kinda like the guy in the circus pointing at all the freaks, only to look in the mirror and see that he's wearing a big red nose and clown pants. |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| I admire your fortitude Homer, I really do. But I think you're kinda like the guy in the circus pointing at all the freaks, only to look in the mirror and see that he's wearing a big red nose and clown pants. |
Well put!
However, I see most people here as just making choices.
Plus, I phrased the idiot thing wrong. 
What I should have said is that many people here are confortable with low end jobs where little is asked of them. If you are a short timer here, it might make sense to just do a couple of contracts in hakwons where little is required. Then again, that pretty much nulls and voids the right to voice certain complaints about those schools!
Most teachers I know here are not freaks or clowns. Most long timers I know here are working as professional teachers in the sense that they take their jobs seriously.
Different people, different strokes |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| If you are a short timer here, it might make sense to just do a couple of contracts in hakwons where little is required |
When did you last work at a hagwon?
I feel that teachers working in a hagwon have the right to discuss their problems and the teachers working in a public school have their rights. If you aren't working in a hagwon, then why do you think you can provide an explanation about it? |
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