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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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 Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| Bob - I also fully support your right to spout the kind of moral equivalent, self-hating, 'why can't we all just get along' liberal garbage that is your hallmark. This in no way means that I agree, support or endorse the nonsense that utter. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:36 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| This in no way means that I agree, support or endorse the nonsense that utter. |
Can you edit this so that the grammar is intelligible? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:00 am Post subject: |
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| It should be 'the nonsense that YOU utter.' |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| It should be 'the nonsense that YOU utter.' |
Hmm, I see. And just why is it nonsense to suppose that people getting along with each other is perhaps a better goal than not doing so?
I'm sure you've got an answer on file for that one. I'll stand by the be amused ... |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| why is it nonsense to suppose that people getting along with each other is perhaps a better goal than not doing so? |
That sounds so nice, doesn't it? 'People getting along with each other.' Such a lovely, 'I have a dream' type sentiment. It is highly indicative of your whole sentimental, and wholly ignorant approach to some of the most intractable problems in the world today. I am afraid such fluffy sentimentality comes undone when it hits the harsh realities of the world, such as the non-integration of muslim minorities in Europe, and the cultural chasm between the West and Islam.
How can we reconcile Shariah with Western liberalism? Guess what, we can't!
'Multiculturalism', 'inter-faith dialogue', and 'tolerance' all sound like such laudible and noble aims. One only need look at countries such as Nigeria, Sir Lanka and Northern Ireland or the situation in the Netherlands to see that the reality is often far different, and that no amount of repeating tired platitudes will enable people to 'get along.' Instead there needs to be a recognition that certain people, and certain belief systems cannot coexist in the same state, both striving for dominance. In the case of Nigeria, and indeed Iraq, this would involve partition into seperate nations, whereas in Europe, it would mean recognising the failure of muslim immigration.
I recognise this obvious reality, as are increasing numbers of Westerners at the latest outbreak of Muslim fanaticism. Continue with the folly that we can all just 'get along.' We can't. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| One only need look at countries such as Nigeria, Sir Lanka and Northern Ireland or the situation in the Netherlands to see that the reality is often far different, and that no amount of repeating tired platitudes will enable people to 'get along.' |
I just took a look, and people in Northern Ireland are getting along. You've provided a clear example of how people do eventually get tired of the strife and agree to disagree. Never said it was easy, just that it's a far better goal than the "recognition" you pat yourself on the back so heartily for possessing ... the problem is that you are not willing to "recognize" those cases where people actually do find ways of getting it together and living alongside each other peaceably.
Your argument seems to be that it is impossible to hope for the very best outcome, and so partition and heaqvily-armed borders are the only logical solutions. History has shown us times and places where the worst did not happen. People said for years that eventually a bloodbath would occur in S Africa because the white minority and the black majority would never find a way to coexist - it didn't happen. Mandella got out of jail and said, "Let it end now." And it did.
Gives us reason to hope for better in other places as well, and work hard to try to make the things we all want happen for everybody. That's not simple minded. It's history.
Get back to me when you have a good reason why trying to encourage people to get along is a bad move ... |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| I just took a look, and people in Northern Ireland are getting along. |
Yes, after hundreds of years of religious wars and ethnic strife and the last 30 years of tit-for-tat terrorist killings, a fragile peace prevails. You take from this lesson that such ethnic divides can be overcome. The lesson I take from it is, why create deep ethnic divisions, which history tells us will lapse into violence, when there is no need to create them. Let us remember that were it not for the 'plantations' of Scottish and English protestants in Northern Ireland in the 1600s, there would have been no religious wars, no bitter sectarian violence and no IRA, INLF, UDA, or UVF killings over the last 30 years.
Yet, in Europe we are now creating the precise conditions for such ethnic violence in the future, by allowing millions of non-assimilable muslims to settle in Europe. Malmo, Paris, Bradford and Amsterdam are all future Belfasts in the making. Some of these cities mentioned have already seen such inter-communal violence.
Not only are both of your examples actually evidence of why ethnic divisions should be discouraged, but they also present us with clear example of conflict resolution coming about due to the acceptance, by both sides, in the rule of law, and Western democratic processes. Such agreement would be near impossible in a country divided between Islamic and Western values, and we are seeing the first signs of this coming conflict all over Europe.
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| Get back to me when you have a good reason why trying to encourage people to get along is a bad move ... |
I never said it was a bad move, and in already pluralistic, multicultural societies, it is probably a very good idea. Yet, it must come in tandem with a recognition that deep cultural and ethnic divides will often lead to conflict, especially where Islam is involved. Thus, the needless creation of such cultural divides should be avoided, wherever possible. Unless of course, you fancy creating another Northern Ireland, Bosnia or Nigeria, which perhaps after years of violence, exhaustion and 'conflict resolution' may finally come to peace. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:57 am Post subject: |
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The Quiet Death of Freedom
John Pilger - LewRockwell.com || April 17, 2006
People ask: Can this be happening in Britain? Surely not. A centuries-old democratic constitution cannot be swept away. Basic human rights cannot be made abstract.
Those who once comforted themselves that a Labour government would never commit such an epic crime in Iraq might now abandon a last delusion, that their freedom is inviolable. If they knew.
The dying of freedom in Britain is not news. The pirouettes of ambition of the prime minister and his political twin, the treasurer, are news, though of minimal public interest. Looking back to the 1930s when social democracies were distracted and powerful cliques imposed their totalitarian ways by stealth and silence, the warning is clear. The Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill has already passed its second parliamentary reading without interest to most Labour MPs and court journalists; yet it is utterly totalitarian in scope.
Presented by the government as a simple measure for streamlining deregulation, or "getting rid of red tape," the only red tape it will actually remove is that of parliamentary scrutiny of government legislation, including this remarkable bill. It will mean that the government can secretly change the Parliament Act and the constitution and laws can be struck down by decree from Downing Street. Blair has demonstrated his taste for absolute power in his abuse of the royal prerogative, which he has used to bypass parliament in going to war and in dismissing landmark High Court judgments, such as that which declared illegal the expulsion of the entire population of the Chagos islands, now the site of an American military base. The new bill marks the end of true parliamentary democracy; in its effect, it is as significant as the US Congress last year abandoning the bill of rights.
Those who fail to hear these steps on the road to dictatorship should look at the government's plans for ID cards, described in its manifesto as "voluntary." They will be compulsory and worse. An ID card will be different from a driving license or passport. It will be connected to a database called the NIR (National Identity Register), where your personal details will be stored. These will include your fingerprints, a scan of your iris, your residence status and unlimited other details about your life. If you fail to keep an appointment to be photographed and fingerprinted, you can be fined up to 500 pounds 
Every place that sells alcohol or cigarettes, every post office, every pharmacy and every bank will have an NIR terminal where you can be asked to "prove who you are." Each time you swipe it, a record is made at the NIR. This means that the government will know every time you withdraw more than 9 pounds from your bank account. Restaurants and off-licenses (liquor stores) will demand that the card is swiped so that they are indemnified from prosecution. Private business will have full access to the NIR. If you apply for a job, your card will have to be swiped. If you want a London Underground Oyster / OCTOPUS card, or a supermarket "loyalty" card, or a telephone line or a mobile phone or an Internet account, your card will have to be swiped.
http://www.knowledgedrivenrevolution.com/Articles/200604/20060417_Quiet_Death_Freedom.htm |
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