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The things some people will believe

 
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Summer Wine



Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:28 am    Post subject: The things some people will believe Reply with quote

I read this in Aljazeera, and I wonder if the person actually believes this or is just trying to create turmoil. He really must not understand non muslims or Americans if he believes what he's saying.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/5DF5AAE3-90D8-45B3-9F53-DC216D13C991.htm

Quote:
Babylonian history revisited



Al-Sammak believes that ancient history may have also played a part in the occupation of Iraq.



"They [pro-Israel US politicians] do want to take revenge on the Iraqi Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar who invaded the Jewish territories in Palestine some 2500 years ago and brought Jews as prisoners to Babylon," he said.



Other Iraqi analysts point to the numerous visits by US politicians to ancient Babylon near the south central city of Hilla.



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Hater Depot



Joined: 29 Mar 2005

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen people fervently believe some mind-numbingly stupid stuff. Ever heard of the ancient kingdom of Hwanguk? Yes, this stupendous civilization in ancient Siberia sent out 12 tribes to found China, India, Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Greece before migrating down to the Korean peninsula and assimilating the locals there, right before disappearing from written and oral history entirely until 1911.
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igotthisguitar



Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While we're on the topic of the "things people believe", did you know:

Saddam Hussein is said to have regarded himself ( who knows, likely even now still does )
as the REINCARNATION of the a-fore-mentioned King NEBUCHADNEZZAR (sic).

Thus have i heard ...

Hater Depot wrote:
... right before disappearing from written and oral history entirely until 1911.


You mean all memory of this was lost for ages until being re-discovered in 1911? Help us out here.

Sounds like something quite analogous to the great ancient Hebrew "diaspora".
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Hater Depot



Joined: 29 Mar 2005

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

igotthisguitar wrote:
Hater Depot wrote:
... right before disappearing from written and oral history entirely until 1911.


You mean all memory of this was lost for ages until being re-discovered in 1911? Help us out here.


Oh yes. This fantastic civilization, the first in human history and the mother of all that came after it, was completely unknown to its children before a humble Korean historian happened upon a journal describing it. Somehow, this ancient text was written in modern Korean, including all kinds of anachronisms and modern knowledge. In fact, it appeared at just the same time that a modern Korean nationalist ideology was forming. Those Hwangukians were also known for their excellent sense of timing.

Quote:
Sounds like something quite analogous to the great ancient Hebrew "diaspora".


If you believe that is a coincidence then I have some fantastic real estate deals that I'm sure an astute investor such as yourself would be most interested in. PM for details.
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igotthisguitar



Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it's sounding more & more like a vain attempt at espousing "mythical" jingoistic c-u-m racial propaganda.

Quite consistent with their current bigotted world view.

Just out of curiosity, what other peoples are you aware of having tried this tact? Only Koreans?

Somehow i doubt it.
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Bulsajo



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

igotthisguitar wrote:
Well, it's sounding more & more like...

Should we congratulate you for managing to jump on the last train leaving town?
Yes, I think we should; For you, that was quite an accomplishment.
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It should be pointed out that, in selling the War On Terror and the Iraq War to the less-sophisticated elements of the American audience, Republicans and their media lackeys often made use of religious justifications and rhetoric("bomb their cities and convert them to Christianity", Bush's "cusade", not to mention the whole Christian zionist eschatology). So I don't think we should be TOO uncharitable toward people in the target countries who assume that American officials mean what they say.

From the article:

Quote:
Dr Muhammad al-Sammak, an expert on Christian Zionist affairs, believes religion plays a central role in the decision-making process in the US.

"It is not a secret," he says.

"Most of the US presidents are very religious and George Bush is one of them. They definitely act according to their religious beliefs.

"For example, the late US president Ronald Reagan predicted in a TV interview that his generation would live to see the Battle of Armageddon. This is very biblical. No person would use such terms unless he was supported by his religious beliefs."



Okay, us occidental sophisticates know that Reagan was just a dottering old man, mouthing whatever platitudes he thought his target audience wanted to hear. But people in the middle east don't neccessarily know that. So why shouldn't they assume that Reagan was serious?

Another memo to Americans: if you don't want the rest of the world to think that your leaders are a bunch of firebrand religious whackjobs, don't elect leaders who sound like firebrand religious whackjobs.
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Gorgias



Joined: 27 Aug 2005

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Umm... That exact point may be off. But the gist of the remark is fairly accurate.
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the other hand wrote:
Another memo to Americans: if you don't want the rest of the world to think that your leaders are a bunch of firebrand religious whackjobs, don't elect leaders who sound like firebrand religious whackjobs.


This will not win my nomination for the Dale Carnegie argument-of-the-year.
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
On the other hand wrote:
Another memo to Americans: if you don't want the rest of the world to think that your leaders are a bunch of firebrand religious whackjobs, don't elect leaders who sound like firebrand religious whackjobs.


This will not win my nomination for the Dale Carnegie argument-of-the-year.


Well, sorry if it wasn't expertly calculated to win friends on Dave's, but my basic point is that if a country's leaders and opinion-makers use religious rhetoric to justify a foreign policy, you shouldn't really be shocked if the rest of the world concludes that the foreign policy is based on religious precepts. Can't see how that would be a controversial point.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the other hand wrote:
It should be pointed out that, in selling the War On Terror and the Iraq War to the less-sophisticated elements of the American audience, Republicans and their media lackeys often made use of religious justifications and rhetoric("bomb their cities and convert them to Christianity", Bush's "cusade", not to mention the whole Christian zionist eschatology). So I don't think we should be TOO uncharitable toward people in the target countries who assume that American officials mean what they say.

From the article:

Quote:
Dr Muhammad al-Sammak, an expert on Christian Zionist affairs, believes religion plays a central role in the decision-making process in the US.

"It is not a secret," he says.

"Most of the US presidents are very religious and George Bush is one of them. They definitely act according to their religious beliefs.

"For example, the late US president Ronald Reagan predicted in a TV interview that his generation would live to see the Battle of Armageddon. This is very biblical. No person would use such terms unless he was supported by his religious beliefs."



Okay, us occidental sophisticates know that Reagan was just a dottering old man, mouthing whatever platitudes he thought his target audience wanted to hear. But people in the middle east don't neccessarily know that. So why shouldn't they assume that Reagan was serious?

Another memo to Americans: if you don't want the rest of the world to think that your leaders are a bunch of firebrand religious whackjobs, don't elect leaders who sound like firebrand religious whackjobs.


It is also a case of cultural projection that many in the Islamic world think America went to war because of religious convictions. Look at the neo-cons. They culturally projected (and then made some other errors, too) when they thought Iraq would flower into a vibrant and healthy democracy and set aside their tribalism, sectarian feuding, and rampant corruption (see tribalism).

Many Arabs seemed to have culturally projected in the case of the cartoon affair. They blamed Denmark for allowing the paper to publish the cartoons, even though unlike the political atmosphere in most of the Middle East, the Danish newspapers may publish for the most part whatever they would like.

We seem to have some cultural projection here, too. For example, Pat Robertson is not an elected official, but he says crazy crap all the time. I wonder how well someone in Saudi Arabia is able to distinguish him from an elected official.
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Hollywoodaction



Joined: 02 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:55 pm    Post subject: Re: The things some people will believe Reply with quote

Summer Wine wrote:
I read this in Aljazeera, and I wonder if the person actually believes this or is just trying to create turmoil. He really must not understand non muslims or Americans if he believes what he's saying.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/5DF5AAE3-90D8-45B3-9F53-DC216D13C991.htm

Quote:
Babylonian history revisited



Al-Sammak believes that ancient history may have also played a part in the occupation of Iraq.



"They [pro-Israel US politicians] do want to take revenge on the Iraqi Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar who invaded the Jewish territories in Palestine some 2500 years ago and brought Jews as prisoners to Babylon," he said.



Other Iraqi analysts point to the numerous visits by US politicians to ancient Babylon near the south central city of Hilla.





Well, it sure makes for a more entertaining story than the one about Saddam Hussein being a fascist dictator or the one about the American government being after Iraq's oil. Rolling Eyes


Last edited by Hollywoodaction on Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
We seem to have some cultural projection here, too. For example, Pat Robertson is not an elected official, but he says crazy crap all the time. I wonder how well someone in Saudi Arabia is able to distinguish him from an elected official.


You're right, it probably has something to do with the cultures of the target countries as well. In a country where people actually DO engage in sectarian conflict, and clerics actually do hold political power, it might be a bit easier to believe that the American Religious Right's claims about the reasons for the war are accurate.

And I do wonder if Bush et al take that into account when writing their speeches. When Bush called his War On Terror a "crusade", was he thinking to himself "heh heh this will put the fear of God into those miscreant Muslims", or was he just totally clueless as to the implications of the word?

re: Pat Robertson. It should be noted that, while Robertson isn't an elected offical, he tries very hard to give the impression of being someone who wields influence over those in power. And I suspect that the GOP is quite happy to have that impression go unchallenged, as long as it keeps Robertson's supporters voting for the party.
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