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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| igotthisguitar wrote: |
| Fredbob wrote: |
Well, if he [George W. Bush] is chairman of the board, he's also the [b]chief executive officer, without question.[/b] . . . He's a great boss. He gives you an objective and then turns you loose on it, holds you accountable for your performance. I think it'll make him a very effective executive."--Vice President *beep* Cheney, on CBS's Face the Nation, Dec. 17, 2000.
That's a quote by Cheney |
 
"The BUCK stops ... uhhh ... where ... ?"  |
That quote is not applicable. "The buck stops here" refers to taking responsibility for a decision made by the person. It does not mean the person is responsible for every bad thing that happens independent of said decision. |
You don't know much about Truman. |
To judge by your posts you know even less. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:03 am Post subject: |
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"As the minutes went by, George Bush continued to sit in the classroom. Was he thinking, "I've been hanging out with the wrong crowd. Which one of them screwed me? Was it the man my daddy's friends delivered a lot of weapons to? Was it that group of religious fundamentalists who visited my state when I was governor? Or was it the Saudis? Damn, it was them."
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| igotthisguitar wrote: |
| Fredbob wrote: |
Well, if he [George W. Bush] is chairman of the board, he's also the [b]chief executive officer, without question.[/b] . . . He's a great boss. He gives you an objective and then turns you loose on it, holds you accountable for your performance. I think it'll make him a very effective executive."--Vice President *beep* Cheney, on CBS's Face the Nation, Dec. 17, 2000.
That's a quote by Cheney |
"The BUCK stops ... uhhh ... where ... ?" |
That quote is not applicable. "The buck stops here" refers to taking responsibility for a decision made by the person. It does not mean the person is responsible for every bad thing that happens independent of said decision. |
You don't know much about Truman. |
To judge by your posts you know even less. |
Please don't tell me that you think a strong leader with moral and ethical convictions put in teh very difficlt situation of deciding the fate of possibly millions and ACTUALLY MAKING THAT CHOICE WITH NO EXCUSES, thought that a plaque on HIS desk stating that the buck stopped there related ONLY to decisions that he himself made.
for Chrissake, man.... How desperate are you? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:41 am Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| igotthisguitar wrote: |
| Fredbob wrote: |
Well, if he [George W. Bush] is chairman of the board, he's also the [b]chief executive officer, without question.[/b] . . . He's a great boss. He gives you an objective and then turns you loose on it, holds you accountable for your performance. I think it'll make him a very effective executive."--Vice President *beep* Cheney, on CBS's Face the Nation, Dec. 17, 2000.
That's a quote by Cheney |
"The BUCK stops ... uhhh ... where ... ?" |
That quote is not applicable. "The buck stops here" refers to taking responsibility for a decision made by the person. It does not mean the person is responsible for every bad thing that happens independent of said decision. |
You don't know much about Truman. |
To judge by your posts you know even less. |
Please don't tell me that you think a strong leader with moral and ethical convictions put in teh very difficlt situation of deciding the fate of possibly millions and ACTUALLY MAKING THAT CHOICE WITH NO EXCUSES, thought that a plaque on HIS desk stating that the buck stopped there related ONLY to decisions that he himself made.
for Chrissake, man.... How desperate are you? |
As you said "put in teh (the?) very difficlt (difficult?) situation of DECIDING the fate of possible millions..." (capitals are mine)
Yes his decisions could and did affect millions. That is why he said the "buck stops here". Because in America the Commander-in-Chief AKA President is the highest office. He can't pass the buck on to the higher-ups, there aren't any.
Again the responsibility lies with the President who at times has to make some very serious and troubling decisions. That is why Truman said "the buck stops here" meaning "I made the decision and I will take the responsiblity"
Are you seriously suggesting that "the buck stops here" relates to decisions OTHER PEOPLE made?
As I said, "the buck stops here" DOES NOT ENTAIL TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR ERRORS IN JUDGEMENT OTHER PEOPLE MADE.
If Joe Blow in Montana decides to shoot his wife, is President Bush responsible for THAT? |
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Fredbob
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: Yongin-Breathing the air-sometimes
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 6:23 am Post subject: |
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The buck stops here is a FIGURATIVE term but I'll grant it's in some way arguable because it is figurative.
This situation does not boil down to one mistake on any one person's fault. It boils down to many mistakes made by many people, many of whom ultimately report to him and some of whom he had/has a hand in appointing. He is responsible for general oversight of the military and all federal programs. Whether you're a CEO or manager of a Burger King, if you don't know what's going on and therefore do not adequately prepare for a crisis you're fired. If you hire or have final authority on hiring people and those people in turn f up, you're fired. Responsible? Maybe not, Accountable YOUR DAMN right he is.
If Joe Montana shoots his wife, the president's not responsible for that. Unless, Joe Montana calls the press three days before he's going to do it, he has a history of domestic abuse, everybody knows that for some reason there aren't enough cops in Montana, the press finds out about it and publicizes it, the FBI decides not to bother, she gets shot, calls the media, tells them she's only got about two days to live since she's been shot and is lying out in the woods somewhere and still the FBI decides not to bother. Then a news crew finds out that three months later her body hasn't been buried. That would be Bush's fault because he has oversight over the FBI and a responsibility to make somebody who knows what he is doing is handling a situation that a state is unable to handle on its own.
The run on sentences were done somewhat for effect. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Are you seriously suggesting that "the buck stops here" relates to decisions OTHER PEOPLE made? |
Absolutely. Otherwise, it is simply stating the obvious. Why would an intelligent man put such a stupidly obvious sign on his desk? |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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First, you need to post more because for some reason I love your avatar. I can stare at it for more than 10 seconds, which is a feat for my attentionspanless generation.
Second,
| Fredbob wrote: |
Whether you're a CEO or manager of a Burger King, if you don't know what's going on and therefore do not adequately prepare for a crisis you're fired. If you hire or have final authority on hiring people and those people in turn f up, you're fired. Responsible? Maybe not, Accountable YOUR DAMN right he is.
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Agree, 100%. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| Fredbob wrote: |
Whether you're a CEO or manager of a Burger King, if you don't know what's going on and therefore do not adequately prepare for a crisis you're fired. If you hire or have final authority on hiring people and those people in turn f up, you're fired. Responsible? Maybe not, Accountable YOUR DAMN right he is.
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Agree, 100%. |
But the U.S. govt is not a corporation; it's a government. It isn't a European-style parliamentarian system, either; it's a presidential system.
The analogy is not valid, then. "Hire/fire" decisions regarding presidents come every four years. We would have a system little different from a Latin American political system were it otherwise. In such a system, people like EFL Trainer take presidents they don't like into custody, imprison or exile them, and impose their own system until someone stronger displaces them, and on and on and on until you get Panama, Colombia, or Peru.
The fact that many here have no tolerance for people they disagree with (i.e., Republican politicians) does not surprise me in the least.
This is a pointless thread.
We already knew most people on this board foam at the mouth when they think of W. Bush. They want him gone, fired, impeached, imprisoned, etc., etc. W. Bush is to blame for everything! There is a pox in the White House! Rome is burning! Antichrist is upon us! He has already taken out one U.S. city for racist motives!
What else is new?
Last edited by Gopher on Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:33 am; edited 2 times in total |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
| Fredbob wrote: |
Whether you're a CEO or manager of a Burger King, if you don't know what's going on and therefore do not adequately prepare for a crisis you're fired. If you hire or have final authority on hiring people and those people in turn f up, you're fired. Responsible? Maybe not, Accountable YOUR DAMN right he is.
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Agree, 100%. |
But the U.S. govt is not a corporation; it's a government. It isn't a European-style parliamentarian system, either. It's a presidential system.
The analogy is not valid, then. "Hire/fire" decisions regarding presidents come every four years. We would have a system little different from a Latin American political system were it otherwise. In such a system, people like EFL Trainer take presidents they don't like into custody, imprison or exile them, and impose their own system until someone stronger displaces them, and on and on and on until you get Panama, Colombia, or Peru.
The fact that many here have no tolerance for people they disagree with (i.e., Republican politicians) does not surprise me in the least.
This is a pointless thread.
We already knew most people on this board foam at the mouth when they think of W. Bush. They want him gone, fired, impeached, imprisoned, etc., etc. W. Bush is to blame for everything! There is a pox in the White House! Rome is burning! Antichrist is upon us! He has already taken out one U.S. city for racist motives!
What else is new? |
Not going overboard, are you?
Yes, maybe our systems are different than yours. We just like to hold the people who are responsible for us and our lives accountable. Like you said, different systems...
As for your EFLTrainer comment, are you sure that he would forget about the due process of a hearing and trial like you did in your comment? And are you sure he wouldn't then want another election after getting rid of the other. I don't know EFLTrainer, maybe he is a closet despot, but you did leave out some things most people who want to see Bush impeached would like to see before and after the empeachment (like due process and a new election). |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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EFL Trainer and those who share his politics and worldview would not give W. Bush a fair and impartial hearing.
Last edited by Gopher on Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:32 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| ...We just like to hold the people who are responsible for us and our lives accountable. Like you said, different systems... |
Are you suggesting that we in the U.S. don't hold people who are responsible for us and our lives accountable? Because we do, just in a different way than you do.
"Different systems" means "different systems." And at least in the comparison between the U.S. political system and those parliamentarian systems we see in the Western European democracies, I suggest we leave it at that.
But if you are inclined to compare them, remember that our constitution has survived for over two hundred years, and we are the most powerful of the liberal democracies this planet has ever seen, with an extremely stable and powerful marketplace, and nearly everyone wants to do business with us or get into our schools, for example. These are verifiable facts.
Take those facts into consideration, then -- because ultimately success trumps everything else -- before judging our system as not up to par with the Western European democracies, which, incidentally, I have tried not to disparage because there are many qualities about them that I admire, particularly the way the British Parliament get to hold the Prime Minister's feet to the fire every so often -- not to mention that, apart from the Romans and the Enlightenment philosophers, we owe a great deal of thanks to the British for imparting much to us, including the English common law system.
On the other hand, I have no problem disparaging the Latinos' version of "democracy," which includes extreme intolerance for opposition or contrary views, and has a pretty unstable history to prove it.
My issue with the kinds of ideas reflected in this thread is that I am sick and tired of the recent trend in U.S. politics where one group of partisans has no tolerance for the other group (and I refer to Dems and Republicans here).
Whenever a Democrat wins, the Republicans go apoplectic and try to impeach or embarrass him. They refuse to tolerate anything about him, let alone work with him.
Whenever a Republican wins, the reverse occurs. It is disappointing.
Last edited by Gopher on Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:31 am; edited 2 times in total |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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If a dolt such as I can get in a word here,
Bush is to blame, of course he is. The decisions he has made are the cause of most of the problems facing America today.
If you still can't see this.......I have to wonder about you.
As for your comment about latin democracies, spot on.......yet you make no complaint about the fact that the Bush "regime" has moved America very much closer to that style of government. Hence the "banana Republicans".
I really wonder if America can be saved at this point. Even if Bush were kicked out of office today, and a Democratically elected government were put in place, could they even begin to repair the damage he and his cronies have done? I really have to wonder. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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What the hell happened to you? You went away for a bit, and you come back quoting mili vanilli, calling me "dude" and saying this (typical arrogance you never use to show) ...
| Gopher wrote: |
But if you are inclined to compare them, remember that our constitution has survived for over two hundred years, and we are the most powerful of the liberal democracies this planet has ever seen. These are verifiable facts.
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Now, I don't agree with a lot you say but I liked reading your points. They usually made me think atleast. Have you been using some strong illegal substances???  |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
If a dolt such as I can get in a word here,
Bush is to blame, of course he is. The decisions he has made are the cause of most of the problems facing America today.
If you still can't see this.......I have to wonder about you.
As for your comment about latin democracies, spot on.......yet you make no complaint about the fact that the Bush "regime" has moved America very much closer to that style of government. Hence the "banana Republicans".
I really wonder if America can be saved at this point. Even if Bush were kicked out of office today, and a Democratically elected government were put in place, could they even begin to repair the damage he and his cronies have done? I really have to wonder. |
In other words, "the world is ending."
AntiBush hyperbole at its best.
This is exactly what the Republican opposition was saying when Clinton was president, or exactly what the Democratic opposition was saying throughout the Reagan Era, or exactly how the Democrats felt when Nixon occupied the Oval Office, or what the Republicans were saying when FDR, JFK, and LBJ sat in the White House.
Last edited by Gopher on Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mills
Joined: 07 Jan 2006
Location: Incheon
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
"The buck stops here" refers to taking responsibility for a decision made by the person. It does not mean the person is responsible for every bad thing that happens independent of said decision. |
"The buck stops here" refers to the President's ultimate responsibility for all decisions, good or bad, made during their tenure (inclusive of those made by their subordinates).
Truman said, "The President – whoever he is – has to decide. He can��t pass the buck to anybody. No one else can do the deciding for him. That��s his job."
Bush says, "Uh, I dunno... that's Dick's job.�� i.e. "Passing the buck".
EDIT: "D-I-C-K's job" |
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