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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| eh, well the ones I gave aren't gov't mouthpieces. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Mills wrote: |
EXCLUDING state run? Poorly phrased I confess, I meant stations that were not simply the mouthpiece of their respective governments. |
Regardless, Kuros' point was a very good one. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
(Not that I doubt that honour killings happen in the Muslim world or that some people defend them, just that something about the "bin Hookah" piece sounds a little three-dollar-billish). |
They happen on a far larger scale than you imagine, and not "some" but the majority of Arab men believe in their right to murder their own wives, sisters, daughters. By all accounts, Bin Hookah appears to represent Arab male opinion very well- wether he is a fictitious character or not.
The personal story of a Palestinian woman I've just read confirms that such barbarism and views are widespread, commonplace in that society. Totally normal. If you want other sources to back up the fact of the gobsmacking oppression Arab women live under, it is everywhere.
"Between 25 and 30 Jordanian woman a year are reported murdered by relatives claiming they were protecting their family "honor" after suspicions of improper behavior. In the Palestinian Authority area, 10 cases were reported last year, while at least five women were killed under similar circumstances in the Israeli Arab community.
The actual number of victims annually is believed to be much higher."
http://www.cnsnews.com/InDepth/archive/199903/IND19990308e.html
"Amer Hasson (27 years old), from Daliyat al Carmel, a village near Haifa, stabbed his sister (Ibtihaj Hasson, 41 years old) to death in the courtyard near their family��s home, in front of many village residents; her ��crime�� was living on her own without a man. Following her murder, Ibtihaj��s body was hung in the street and neighbors gathered around to clap hands, dance, and sing in joy."
http://www.wavo.org/english/index.asp?f=5-3.htm&m=menu.htm&t=top.htm
Its obvious that women have no value in many muslim countries- except as workhorses for men, or bearer of sons. They are killed for the slightest of suspicions; the malicious gossip of a neighbour is enough to sentence them to death. Hard for the westerner to imagine. Less difficult for a westerner who has spent time with Muslims, to imagine. |
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jinglejangle
Joined: 19 Feb 2005
Location: Far far far away.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
She has to be in hiding fearing for her life is my guess.
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I don't think the nice Dr. really gives much of a rat's behind whether people want to hurt her or not. She didn't look like she was at all worried about what she was saying.
I think she has brass balls and I doubt very much that she's hiding from anyone.
Of course, I also suspect that most really violent types over there would be unlikely to jeopardize any operatives/agents they managed to get over here on such a small operation as killing one woman.
I hope. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:59 am Post subject: |
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By all accounts, Bin Hookah appears to represent Arab male opinion very well- wether he is a fictitious character or not.
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But the impression we're supposed to get from the Bin Hookah piece is of a well-educated individual, versed in liberal theory and western culture. The implied point is: 'It doesn't matter how educated or assimilated a Muslim may appear, he still believes in murdering women!!" |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 3:29 am Post subject: |
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Let's see, 25 - 30 women were reportedly killed over family honor in Jordan last year. In the much smaller Christian colonial village of Salem, Mass., a comparable number of women were killed (in a shorter time-frame) after being accused and found guilty of being witches...
In March the afflicted girls accused Martha Corey. The three women previously denounced as colluding with the devil were marginal to the community. Martha Corey was different; she was an upstanding member of the Puritan congregation - her revelation as a witch demonstrated that Satan's influence reached to the very core of the community. Events snowballed as the accusatory atmosphere intensified and reached a fever pitch. During the period from March into the fall many were charged, examined, tried and condemned to death. The hangings started in June with the death of Bridget Bishop and continued through September. As winter approached, the hysteria played itself out as criticism of the procedures grew. In October, the colonial governor dissolved the local Court of inquiry. The convictions and condemnations for witchery stopped. Nineteen victims of the witch-hunt had been hanged, one crushed to death under the weight of stones and at least four died in prison awaiting trial... http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/salem.htm
How about invoking "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..." |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
But the impression we're supposed to get from the Bin Hookah piece is of a well-educated individual, versed in liberal theory and western culture. The implied point is: 'It doesn't matter how educated or assimilated a Muslim may appear, he still believes in murdering women!!" |
Why would you not believe that?
From all I've seen: Culture is stronger than education. I don't know your background or experience, but I have enough to know Bin Hookah is an entirely probable representation of Male muslim opinion across several muslim countries.
My own family took in a young muslim woman once- she was in hiding from her father who had sworn to kill her when her brother mentioned to her father that she was dressing innapropriately. She took the threat seriously and made sure never to see her father again. She even kept her whereabouts and contact details secret. And this was in Africa.
And I have plenty of exp of muslims from middle east countries to know their views and regard for women is shocking to the average westerner.
but of course if you've lived all your life in the US or Canada, you'd find it difficult to believe Arabs are any different to yourself. You'd assume they think like you do and hold the same values and opinions. I suggest you go and work in Saudi arabia for a while. Or maybe even talk to someone who has. They'll tell you the deal that women have there. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:53 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Rteacher"]
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| Let's see, 25 - 30 women were reportedly killed over family honor in Jordan last year. In the much smaller Christian colonial village of Salem, Mass., a comparable number of women were killed (in a shorter time-frame) after being accused and found guilty of being witches... |
Oh please. An isolated historical event of centuries ago means the west can now be declared a place of barbarism and brutality?
National Geographic News, February 12, 2002
-Hundreds, if not thousands, of women are murdered by their families each year in the name of family "honor."
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/02/0212_020212_honorkilling.html
Every year, hundreds of women and girls are murdered in the Middle East by male family members. Given that honor killings often remain a private family affair, no official statistics are available on the practice or its frequency.
http://www.merip.org/mer/mer206/ruggi.htm
Thousands of girls and women across the globe (although mostly centered in the Middle East) are murdered by male family members each year in the name of family honor. Honor killings are executed for instances of rape, infidelity, flirting or any other instance perceived as disgracing the family's honor.
http://womensissues.about.com/cs/honorkillings/a/honorkillings.htm
If a woman brings shame to the family--through allegations of premarital or extramarital sex, by refusing an arranged marriage, or attempting to obtain a divorce--her male relatives are bound by duty and culture to murder her.
http://www.worldandi.com/newhome/public/2003/may/clpub.asp
I would urge you to read this first hand account of life in a typical Palestinian village. Where women are so oppressed, they think being killed for talking to a man is normal, and murder of babies and women is commonplace- 99% of it never being reported or even spoken about. This book is written by someone who survived and by sheer luck/coincidence was rescued by a swiss aid worker.
seriously. Its an eye opener. A page turner. A real first hand insight into a horrifying portion of muslim society.
| Quote: |
| How about invoking "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..." |
So you're saying remain silent about the widespread, wholescale violence against women in Muslim countries?  |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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I'm sure that there has been corruption of some laws meant to preserve traditional family structures (the degradation of which many vocal and radical Christians are also concerned about...)
I think that the plight of women in western democratic countries is apparently much better because women have gotten the right to vote - and they usually outnumber men. I don't think that it is evidence of any innate superiority of Christian theology. Before women suffrage in America, women - based on Biblical interpretations - were considered basically under the dominion of men and their legal status was comparable to that of children who could be physically punished to keep them in their place. I think it's common knowledge that many "wayward" western women were killed by their husbands and families...
On a tangentially related topic, radical feminism's push for keeping abortions widely available is not in women's or society's best interest for many reasons - including the widespread practice of selective abortions targeting mainly female fetuses in countries around the world (especially Asian countries where there will soon be critical shortages of women ...) |
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AbbeFaria
Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
Let's see, 25 - 30 women were reportedly killed over family honor in Jordan last year. In the much smaller Christian colonial village of Salem, Mass., a comparable number of women were killed (in a shorter time-frame) after being accused and found guilty of being witches...
In March the afflicted girls accused Martha Corey. The three women previously denounced as colluding with the devil were marginal to the community. Martha Corey was different; she was an upstanding member of the Puritan congregation - her revelation as a witch demonstrated that Satan's influence reached to the very core of the community. Events snowballed as the accusatory atmosphere intensified and reached a fever pitch. During the period from March into the fall many were charged, examined, tried and condemned to death. The hangings started in June with the death of Bridget Bishop and continued through September. As winter approached, the hysteria played itself out as criticism of the procedures grew. In October, the colonial governor dissolved the local Court of inquiry. The convictions and condemnations for witchery stopped. Nineteen victims of the witch-hunt had been hanged, one crushed to death under the weight of stones and at least four died in prison awaiting trial... http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/salem.htm
How about invoking "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..." |
That's just stupid. I could try to say it in a nice way, but it's too stupid for me to bother. You're saying we shouldn't be upset about it because Christian women were killed hundreds of years ago? The world was a hugely different place back then. So different in terms culture, societal structure, education etc. as to be alien to us now. Especially in Puritan society. They can make the Pentacostal's look like a band of traveling whores. We are not living in the 16 and 1700's and Muslims need to realize that as well. If their religion can not adapt then it deserves to die out. No matter how much they piss and moan, honor killings will never be allowed in western society, and it should be banned there. Unless of course, they conquer the world, but it ain't gonna happen.
Now: You're comparing 300+ year old Christian history to modern day muslims. How many witches in Europe or North America have been burned in the last 200 years? If you're going to start digging in the past for every murder or senseless killing brought about by Christianity then you better post the Muslim ones right along next to it, because they've been more violent for a much longer time.
And Christians, except for a few isolated groups, have given up their murdering ways. You've got the nuts who bomb abortion clinics and shoot doctors, but, and lets be very clear on this, THEY ARE AN EXTREME MINORITY when measured against the number of Christians in the world. Even the Klan, a fascist Christian group, hasn't been in any position of power or influence in nearly 50 years. As you can see by the always article-happy Rapier, we've got instance after instance of murder for no other reason than to appease this barborous and hate-filled religion. For the "honor". There is no honor in killing a woman or a child because someone else prayed upon her and violated her. Kill the man who did it, of course, kill the victim...
Lets start lining up all the women and young girls in abuse shelters across Europe and NA and start slitting their throat, stabbing them to death or hanging them from doorways and we'll see how long you spout that "first stone" bull*hit. Because that's all an honor killing is, killing the innocent victims who suffer because of the brutel MEN in their society.
This moral relativism is disgusting. "Christians have killed people so it's okay." Pull your head out of your backside.
��S�� |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| How about invoking "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..." |
I never thought anyone could trump the moral equivalence of the The Bobster, but you seem to have managed it. Your ignorance and stupidity becomes clearer with every post.
You attempt to come across as a tolerant, open-minded, 'why can't we all just get along' type of guy. What you are, in fact, is a moral coward, who is afraid to make the most basic moral distinctions between right and wrong, for fear of being labelled intolerant or racist. Hardly surprising that someone so obviously stupid would be a mouthpeice for simplistic religious sloganeering. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:51 am Post subject: |
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This poll is in no way representative of the vast majority of Muslims, who are of course, moderates and would never support honour killings or any abuse of women, and anyway, women get paid 10% less than men in managerial positions in the banking industry in the West, so who are we to complain about the oppression of women.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4357158.stm
A survey by a university in Turkey has shown almost 40% support for the practice of "honour killing".
It questioned 430 people, most of them men. When asked the appropriate punishment for a woman who has committed adultery, 37% replied she should be killed.
Twenty-five percent said that she deserved divorce, and 21% that her nose or ears should be cut off.
Yes, I know, it's a small survey, and is probably like all the other surveys conducted on Muslim social attitudes, in that it is in no way whatsoever representative of Muslim opinion. |
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:15 am Post subject: |
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to rehash...
here is what I have gathered people have said about the subject of this thread.
telling the 'religion of peace' some truth.
This lady is my hero
Wow.. Speechless.
I deeply admire this woman for having the nads to say the truth
a slam-dunk for sanity
I'm really impressed by this video.
She has to be in hiding fearing for her life is my guess
everything else is mere commentary |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:01 am Post subject: |
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OK so maybe I went a bit overboard in highlighting the brutality faced by muslim women. But i do believe its on a scale beyond what many westerners are able to comprehend.
What I see is a society thats become so brutalised and numb to violence, always inflicted on its most vulnerable members. And the states involved, are the ones most closely linked to the religion of peace. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| and the texts of the Koran are immutable and unchanging. |
That's interesting since the Koran, like the bible, is a collection of other people's recollections of what they THINK he said while alive, and were collected over a period of time, not in a moment, and were ALL thrown into the Koran without any vetting...
Hmmm.... |
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