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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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 Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| canuckistan wrote: |
| If men are worried in life about being held financially accountanable for children they didn't plan and do not want, they are not entirely helpless-- they should engage in more self-protection and use condoms without fail....the added benefit of reducing STD's and HIV aside. |
While this is hard to disagree with, the exact same argument can be made for women, and has been made.
Just change a couple of words:
If [women] are worried in life about being held financially [and otherwise]accountanable for children they didn't plan and do not want, they are not entirely helpless-- they should engage in more self-protection and use condoms without fail....the added benefit of reducing STD's and HIV aside.
People screw up (and these days, screw in general at a very early age) and deserve to have some sort of recourse.
I actually agree with gopher that this issue is much more complicated than it is presented.
I feel very bad for that British woman who wants her embryos created with her ex, but he objects with pretty well articulated reasons.
The real problem is trying to legislate such intimate and complex issues. I actually believe that abortion is at best a questionable resolution for a problem pregnancy. On the other hand, I am old enough to remember pre-Roe v Wade, and was old enough at that time to have had friends suffer the dire consequences of illegal abortions.
Women have always aborted unwanted children, and often, that failing, committed infanticide. Are these good solutions? Obviously not. Can they be stopped? Equally obviously not.
The reason I don't weigh in more on this issue is that both sides see it in absolute terms. It is a nasty, messy issue. The biggest problem, in my opinion, is that politicians use this painful issue for cheap political fodder. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| canuckistan wrote: |
| If men are worried in life about being held financially accountanable for children they didn't plan and do not want, they are not entirely helpless-- they should engage in more self-protection and use condoms without fail....the added benefit of reducing STD's and HIV aside. |
There is an argument to be made, however -- or in addition -- that men would benefit by having a reproductive "off" switch. That is, some kind of reproductive or surgical technology that would allow men to engage in sexual intercourse, with zero possibility of sperm reaching the egg. The birth control pill gives this option to women...perhaps some kind of shunt or valve, surgically attached to the vas deferens, that could be turned off and left off, would be possible. |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| canuckistan wrote: |
| If men are worried in life about being held financially accountanable for children they didn't plan and do not want, they are not entirely helpless-- they should engage in more self-protection and use condoms without fail....the added benefit of reducing STD's and HIV aside. |
There is an argument to be made, however -- or in addition -- that men would benefit by having a reproductive "off" switch. That is, some kind of reproductive or surgical technology that would allow men to engage in sexual intercourse, with zero possibility of sperm reaching the egg. The birth control pill gives this option to women...perhaps some kind of shunt or valve, surgically attached to the vas deferens, that could be turned off and left off, would be possible. |
I'm no expert, not having a *beep* of my own and all, but wouldn't it be painful to turn off the release valve? Unless you can separate out the sperm from the rest, ejaculation does seem to me to be sort of necessary! I just visualize some sort of backed up plumbing problem. Ouch. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| desultude wrote: |
| I'm no expert, not having a *beep* of my own and all, but wouldn't it be painful to turn off the release valve? Unless you can separate out the sperm from the rest, ejaculation does seem to me to be sort of necessary! I just visualize some sort of backed up plumbing problem. Ouch. |
Sperm cells are made in the test tick uls, and are transferred to the prostate gland via the vas deferens. The two tubes which connect the test tick uls to the prostate.
Seminal fluid -- which contains sugars, vitamins and other substances to help the sperm cells survive -- is manufactured in the prostate gland. During ejaculation, muscular contractions in the pelvis force seminal fluid and sperm cells out of the prostate and then out of the *beep*.
The vas deferens do not contract or move during ejaculation...so a shunt implanted in the two vas deferens will simply prevent sperm cells from reaching the prostate gland. The male will still be able to ejaculate, but he will simply be "shooting blanks", to use the colloquial term.
Currently with a conventional vasectomy, the vas deferens are permanently severed; it's a nonreversable process. What I am suggesting is the equivalent of an "open-shut valve" instead of sealing off the tubes permanently.
And that, boys and girls, is MOS's anatomy and physiology lesson for the day. 
(somtimes I can't believe how infantile the dirty word blocker is on this forum.  ) |
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canuckistan
Mod Team
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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Desultude wrote:
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Women have always aborted unwanted children, and often, that failing, committed infanticide. Are these good solutions? Obviously not. Can they be stopped? Equally obviously not.
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It's been around as long as prostitution. So rather than stick one's head in the sand and pretend it doesn't or shouldn't happen, abortion should remain legalized and regulated so women stay healthy and have the option to do more with their lives than just childbearing/rearing. |
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Mills
Joined: 07 Jan 2006
Location: Incheon
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:12 am Post subject: |
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I'll toss this into the mix...
State Victim Advocate Opposes Morning After Pill
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State Victim Advocate James F. Papillo called on lawmakers Monday to oppose a bill requiring Connecticut hospitals, including Catholic institutions, to provide the "morning after pill" to rape victims.
"I don't know what his motivation is," she said. "It certainly doesn't appear to be representing the victims we work with that need emergency contraception without delay and without judgment".
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Additional Charges for Tuggle
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A Hayden man charged with the attempted murder of his 12-year-old daughter is facing additional charges after Idaho officials confirmed the girl was raped before she was stabbed.
Tuggle hadn't seen his children in a decade because he was in an Idaho prison serving a nine-year sentence for the rape of his then 13-year-old sister-in-law, who became pregnant as a result. |
I worked in the PICU at Sacred Heart Medical Center (the Catholic hospital Ms. Tuggle was taken to). Yes... taken. She did not get to, nor does anyone in a similar position, get to choose the hospital they are sent to. Luckily for her, Sacred Heart is a Catholic hospital that does (or it did anyway) dispense Plan B to rape victims. |
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ChopChaeJoe
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:35 am Post subject: |
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Given the new Chief Justice, any overturning of the Roe decision will likely be on very narrow grounds and will not substantially change the ability to get an abortion on demand except in unusual circumstances and locations.
Maybe a few conservative states will have laws outlawing abortions pass Constitutional muster, but there's always a Greyhound bus to get you where you need if you failed to practice safe sex or were the victim of a sex crime. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| desultude wrote: |
| The reason I don't weigh in more on this issue is that both sides see it in absolute terms. It is a nasty, messy issue. The biggest problem, in my opinion, is that politicians use this painful issue for cheap political fodder. |
Agree.
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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I know I haven't posted for awhile and I hate to jump into this discussion, but I just read this blog by one of my friends and thought it was suitable.
Here it is...
While I was praying and reading in Ezekiel this morning, there were several verses that really struck a cord in my heart; ones I have heard many times before. You know how it happens, verses you could quote word for word suddenly grip you and you understand the significance and meaning of them in a way that could only come about by divine intervention. I have to say it left me rather unsettled.
What are we doing as a nation but the very things that God abhors?
"For they have committed adultery and blood is on their hands they even sacrificed their children, whom they bore to me"
-Ezekiel 23:37-
How do we not see that our murdering our own children is causing the wrath of God to be stored up against us? Do we really think there will be no consequence to this massacre?
Therefore, as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I will give you over to bloodshed and it will pursue you. Since you did not hate bloodshed, bloodshed will pursue you.
-Ezekiel 35:6-
"Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it."
-Numbers 35:33-
We as a nation are blind to the bloodshed that has defiled our land. We do not recognize or understand what this means or what is about to come against us because of it. But God is very clear that if we do not repent, if we do not plead a better blood, there will literally be hell to pay. If we do not silence this cry for bloodshed by pleading the blood of Jesus, the blood of our children will be used to make atonement for the blood that has been shed by our hands. And as the church, we cannot claim that our hands are clean, for in our silence and refusal to stand against the injustice that is going on in our nation, the blood of 50 million babies is now on our hands.
"Woe to the city of bloodshed."
-Ezekiel 24:6-
"I the Lord have spoken. The time has come for me to act. I will not hold back; I will not have pity, nor will I relent. You will be judged according to your conduct and your actions, declares the Sovereign Lord."
-Ezekiel 24:14-
If we do not wake up right now and realize the urgency of the hour we are living in, if we do not repent and cry out to heaven for mercy and forgiveness for the blood that has been shed in our land, we will come under the judgments of God. This is not a thing that only some people are called to. This is something that we all MUST do if we don't want to come under the fire of God's wrath. I don't care if you think I am being dramatic here; if anything, I am watering this down so as not to make you cry. Because trust me, if you understood what we are facing as a nation, you would. We HAVE to stop believing the lies of the enemy that have saturated our nation. We have to open our eyes and refuse to buy into the deception that is all around us.
"By lying to my people, who listen to lies, you have killed those who should not have died and have spared those who should not live."
-Ezekiel 13:19-
Where are those who will repent on behalf of this nation and cry out for God's mercy? We have a promise from the One who cannot lie
"If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land."
-2 Chronicles 7:14-
So you may think you might understand the issues with children and what is suitable justice, but I thought you might want to be aware of what God's word has to say about spilling innocent blood. I know this isn't going to win me anymore friends, but I guess sometimes the truth does that. |
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ChopChaeJoe
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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It is a strange idea -- to die before you are born.
As for the Bible and killing of innocents -- King Saul got in big trouble with the big man because he didn't slaughter all of the women and children after a battle.
I think that if you want to eliminate abortion, give people hope and reason for a rewarding future, and educate them as how to enjoy sex without unwanted pregnancy and disease. Ignorance, despair and hopelessness are the root causes of almost all bad decisions. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| ChopChaeJoe wrote: |
As for the Bible and killing of innocents -- King Saul got in big trouble with the big man because he didn't slaughter all of the women and children after a battle. |
The people King Saul Killed were evil people. They would sacrifice their babies to idols and they were involved in beastiality. If God didn't destroy their nation then the next generation would have been worse.
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| I think that if you want to eliminate abortion, give people hope and reason for a rewarding future, and educate them as how to enjoy sex without unwanted pregnancy and disease. Ignorance, despair and hopelessness are the root causes of almost all bad decisions. |
I agree somewhat to what you said. Ideally, sex is best between a man and a woman in marriage. If people would submit to this basic law, it would help a lot of people.
Unfortunately, yes, we don't live in a perfect world and I can understand why people choose not to marry. If they should choose to have sex then they should bear the choice of having unprotected sex.
Of course there are horrible cases of rape and incest and there is no easy answer with these types of cases. |
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ChopChaeJoe
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:08 am Post subject: |
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Babies should die because their parents are involved in beastiality? I'll take the Buddist notion of karma over that any day.
Lot was saved from Soddom and he begged the Soddomites to go after his virgin daughters so that he could entertain company in peace. |
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whitebeagle
Joined: 09 Feb 2003
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| I have to ask. FiveEagles, why exactly do you bother posting on here? You come across as a total nutcase. Are you trying to convert people? Do you have a lot of time on your hands? And why are those who do not share your extreme right-wing views worthy only of condescension? I truly feel sorry for your child. They have a lifetime of this rubbish to contend with. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| To answer your question broadly, I regard "the Bible" as a collection of Iron-Age folktales from the Middle East, nothing more. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| ChopChaeJoe wrote: |
It is a strange idea -- to die before you are born.
As for the Bible and killing of innocents -- King Saul got in big trouble with the big man because he didn't slaughter all of the women and children after a battle.
I think that if you want to eliminate abortion, give people hope and reason for a rewarding future, and educate them as how to enjoy sex without unwanted pregnancy and disease. Ignorance, despair and hopelessness are the root causes of almost all bad decisions. |
Good! Also make sure people know that orgasm is more often achieved by oral sex / manual stimulation than full-on sex. |
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