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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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 Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:53 am Post subject: |
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Gopher,
You left out the part that most of the dirty work done in the world today is done with American manufactured munitions, mines, arms, technology................................they sell both death and coca cola. So please end the bla bla bla and hermeneutics.... their greatest export is Death.
I in no way want to slam "Americans" but I am referring to their goverment and industrial/military leadership.
DD |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:01 am Post subject: |
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What you say is simply untrue and, revealingly, bitter.
Distinctions between "the American people" and "the government" are the favorite of the antiAmerican crowd, but they mostly reflect an unsophisticated and superficial understanding of the U.S. political system.
We voluntarily pay taxes and thus enable and tacitly approve our govt to act as it does. The entire armed forces consist of volunteers, too, and this has been so for decades.
We also influence and shape the policies our govt adopts. FDR had to confront American isolationism before committing to the Second World War, for example. And more recently, don't forget that W. Bush secured majority support in Congress for the Iraqi War.
Whenever a president gets too far out of line, we move against him, as we did against Nixon.
Whenever a president proposes someting that's popularly opposed, like the Dubai Ports deal, presidents respond to this, too.
So, for better or for worse, the American people and the American govt are much more closely related than critics like you like to believe. Timmothy McVeigh found that out, incidentally, in 1995, when his attack and his reasons for it generated very little sympathy in the American public.
By the way, are you Canadian?
Last edited by Gopher on Sat Jun 17, 2006 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| By the way, are you Canadian? |
By way of birth, yes. But also have a Swiss passport and really haven't lived in Canada for any length of time since 1990. I don't go by national labels, my identity probably is more with "language" than anything else. ......meaning, "western English". If you can follow that.
You make valid points about "Americans" being what their government is. On the surface all that makes sense and is part of the mystique that the real power mongers would want you to believe.
This is what is so sad about America. It is ideologically driven and thus like any dictatorship/regime, the people are duped into thinking it is their will that is being done. Meanwhile the cash registers chirp songs for those in the glass skyscrapers while the rest get by on bread and circuses (read: tv sports/celebrity wishing/a pay check). America has become more and more divorced from its true values. Like a balloon expanding, it has become "America lite", as its values become merely vapour and pie in the sky. Still everyone believes , nobody dares burst the balloon. My god! America might fall! The sky might come crashing down.
Let me briefly address a few of your seemingly surfacely valid and facile points.
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| We voluntarily pay taxes and thus enable and tacitly approve our govt to act as it does. |
Have you ever tried to NOT pay your taxes????? My god! It is worse than if you'd killed somebody. The American system is designed to punish those at the bottom, punish them worse than any "enemy" , if they don't pay. The powers of the IRS are terrible, as in "Ivan the terrible". Yet be a multimillionaire and not pay your taxes and this will be overlooked. My point being -- there is nothing voluntary about paying taxes!!!!!!! It is taken from you. So paying taxes has no direct bearing , does not mean that you sanction the "said" government.
The entire armed forces consist of volunteers, too, and this has been so for decades.
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The entire armed forces consist of volunteers, too, and this has been so for decades.
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Yeah, they volunteer ---- for a paycheck. It is a messy business this recruiting and people don't just volunteer. They are brainwashed by a military propoganda machine. Movie theatres, TV, all forms of media are bombarded by military advertising. They are just behind Proctor and Gamble in terms of advertising , not to mention the billions they spend in Hollywood and on TV studios to get their ideology promoted (ever notice all the military style programs???). Recruiters go into high schools and smile and say, come have some fun!!!! It is all a farce and there is nothing "volunteer" about it. If the military stopped all this circus/promotion/recruiting, few would show up at their door. Only those already choking on the ideological, redwhiteandblue coloured glasses would. And these people don't go voluntarily, they go because daddy did. And I have to be like daddy. Finally, it is the poor that fight the war and fill the military. It is purely an economic way out and not "volunteer". Now the peace corps, that is atleast a little "volunteer".....
Got to run but will be back for more comment. .....
DD |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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And further,
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We also influence and shape the policies our govt adopts. FDR had to confront American isolationism before committing to the Second World War, for example. And more recently, don't forget that W. Bush secured majority support in Congress for the Iraqi War.
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Who influences and shapes American govt policy???? Certainly not the normal average American!!!! Think vested interests, business interests, haliburton, GE and the petrochemical gang......lawyers, management and the old monied..... This is not conjecture but the truth. The amount of money spent on lobbying is mindboggling. Govt policy is for sale and to the highest bidder -- it is not a reflection of the American public's wish!!!
This is apparent in how the present administration pushes on with Iraq. This is apparent in how the present administration pays scant attention to "green " issues. This is apparent in how the present administration pays scant attention to Medicare for all etc etc etc .........
It is much fairer to say that the "administration" (read - dictatorship -- it fits all the criteria as set forth by Valery in his seminal work "On the workings of dictatorships". ) decides what it will do and then seeks to change public opinion/promote. This has been the case ever since WWII and the rise of big media. Used to be, it was journalists who communicated and pressures government to change policy. Not now!!!!! The best we got journalistically in the U.S. is critical comedy. Nice but not sincere and is but bubblegum. The biggest problem in America today is that the press has no underbelly. They are bought and sold and they don't do their proper job of influencing government as the voice of the people........and without them, you can't say the govt reflects the people.
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And more recently, don't forget that W. Bush secured majority support in Congress for the Iraqi War.
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And how did he get that support???? He lied. BIG TIME (a la Goerring who stated quite famously that if you are going to lie, lie BIG. That way people couldn't possibly disbelieve you...). Lying is another criteria most applicable to a "dictatorship" , elected / benevolent or otherwise.
| Quote: |
| Whenever a president gets too far out of line, we move against him, as we did against Nixon. |
This isn't true at all!!!!! First, it might ring true, if the public were ever able to be informed of how far out of line, the president is. They aren't. Especially now. No critical press, no opposition, no transparency in govt. All smoke and mirrors. Americans I'm sorry to say, have very seldom moved against their President. Not because they never get out of line but because they've been fed a diet of "America the beautiful". They are profoundly conservative and they let their presidents get away with murder. Bush lied to congress, he should be thrown in jail for that. What happened, he got another 4 years!!! Let me lie to a judge and be caught?????? I'd certainly get some jail time, most certainly.
| Quote: |
o, for better or for worse, the American people and the American govt are much more closely related than critics like you like. Timmothy McVeigh found that out, incidentally, in 1995, when his attack and his reasons for it generated very little sympathy in the American public.
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Not so, for reasons above. Also, the people had no sympathy for McVeigh simply because he was a very evil person who went about things the wrong way. Also psychologically unstable/crazy. Americans and any normally functioning individual wouldn't ever give him any sympathy. But please note how the army bred and inculcated the murderous streak and bred the murderous streak in McVeigh. A prime example of the "violent" soil from which American roses bloom.
One last point. Beyond producing the technology, hardward, software, munitions of war and death --- America is the greatest at promoting their use. That way the business of war can bring peace and prosperity to the plains of America. America (not the people, the govt), meddles in others affairs like a cuckold, jumping from bed to bed. Why? To create the market for their valuable commodity.
So many said the Iraqi war was about oil, was about freedom, was about geopolitical positioning, was about righting wrongs. WRONG! In my simple opinion it was done because they could!!! They had a massive stockpile of arms and needed to clean the inventory. Good business. That 1,000s of Iraqis, innocent Americans would die, doesn't matter. The bottom line matters. It's how George Bush went from well off, to very rich..............
The modus operandi of American administrations has always been not to respond to opportunity but to make the opportunity. That is what is so evil about American and why the govt is not the people.
DD |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Agent Mulder lives. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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And further,
| Quote: |
We also influence and shape the policies our govt adopts. FDR had to confront American isolationism before committing to the Second World War, for example. And more recently, don't forget that W. Bush secured majority support in Congress for the Iraqi War.
|
Who influences and shapes American govt policy???? Certainly not the normal average American!!!! Think vested interests, business interests, haliburton, GE and the petrochemical gang......lawyers, management and the old monied..... This is not conjecture but the truth. The amount of money spent on lobbying is mindboggling. Govt policy is for sale and to the highest bidder -- it is not a reflection of the American public's wish!!!
This is apparent in how the present administration pushes on with Iraq. This is apparent in how the present administration pays scant attention to "green " issues. This is apparent in how the present administration pays scant attention to Medicare for all etc etc etc .........
It is much fairer to say that the "administration" (read - dictatorship -- it fits all the criteria as set forth by Valery in his seminal work "On the workings of dictatorships". ) decides what it will do and then seeks to change public opinion/promote. This has been the case ever since WWII and the rise of big media. Used to be, it was journalists who communicated and pressures government to change policy. Not now!!!!! The best we got journalistically in the U.S. is critical comedy. Nice but not sincere and is but bubblegum. The biggest problem in America today is that the press has no underbelly. They are bought and sold and they don't do their proper job of influencing government as the voice of the people........and without them, you can't say the govt reflects the people.
| Quote: |
And more recently, don't forget that W. Bush secured majority support in Congress for the Iraqi War.
|
And how did he get that support???? He lied. BIG TIME (a la Goerring who stated quite famously that if you are going to lie, lie BIG. That way people couldn't possibly disbelieve you...). Lying is another criteria most applicable to a "dictatorship" , elected / benevolent or otherwise.
| Quote: |
| Whenever a president gets too far out of line, we move against him, as we did against Nixon. |
This isn't true at all!!!!! First, it might ring true, if the public were ever able to be informed of how far out of line, the president is. They aren't. Especially now. No critical press, no opposition, no transparency in govt. All smoke and mirrors. Americans I'm sorry to say, have very seldom moved against their President. Not because they never get out of line but because they've been fed a diet of "America the beautiful". They are profoundly conservative and they let their presidents get away with murder. Bush lied to congress, he should be thrown in jail for that. What happened, he got another 4 years!!! Let me lie to a judge and be caught?????? I'd certainly get some jail time, most certainly.
| Quote: |
o, for better or for worse, the American people and the American govt are much more closely related than critics like you like. Timmothy McVeigh found that out, incidentally, in 1995, when his attack and his reasons for it generated very little sympathy in the American public.
|
Not so, for reasons above. Also, the people had no sympathy for McVeigh simply because he was a very evil person who went about things the wrong way. Also psychologically unstable/crazy. Americans and any normally functioning individual wouldn't ever give him any sympathy. But please note how the army bred and inculcated the murderous streak and bred the murderous streak in McVeigh. A prime example of the "violent" soil from which American roses bloom.
One last point. Beyond producing the technology, hardward, software, munitions of war and death --- America is the greatest at promoting their use. That way the business of war can bring peace and prosperity to the plains of America. America (not the people, the govt), meddles in others affairs like a cuckold, jumping from bed to bed. Why? To create the market for their valuable commodity.
So many said the Iraqi war was about oil, was about freedom, was about geopolitical positioning, was about righting wrongs. WRONG! In my simple opinion it was done because they could!!! They had a massive stockpile of arms and needed to clean the inventory. Good business. That 1,000s of Iraqis, innocent Americans would die, doesn't matter. The bottom line matters. It's how George Bush went from well off, to very rich..............
The modus operandi of American administrations has always been not to respond to opportunity but to make the opportunity. That is what is so evil about American and why the govt is not the people.
DD |
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