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Why does Korea make people so cynical?
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laogaiguk

Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:46 pm Post subject:

Yu_Bum_suk wrote:

nautilus wrote:

Whenever I hear the apologist type gloss over or rationalize the bads here, I think we all immediately think "wimp". Westerners admire assertive and independent people who speak up and don't tolerate BS. And the fact of normality in Korean society is that a load of what we call BS is usual, expected, and accepted.
Thus the only way to really adapt smoothly to Korea is to adapt to taking various degrees of sh*t...wether this means ignoring, glossing over, or not letting it bother you. People who can do this are happier here. People who , in the western sense, fight, resent and stew over every percieved wrong, end up angry, paranoid, and cynical: because its impossible to change Koreans to our liking.

That's why it's so important to choose one's battles very carefully over here.

Not just over here. For the people on this board who haven't actually had experience with what people like to call a professional career, you would be surprised at the things you have to put up with, ignore and gloss over back home too (atleast in North America). If there weren't so many BA's here without a clue on how the real world works, we wouldn't have so many cynics (sp??). Things are worse here in Korea, but mostly because it is more open and accepted. There are a lot of business practices I would love to educate some Koreans about, but then again, same back home. It all depends on your employer, here and back home. Anyways, things will change here. Remember America used to be a haven of unionless "slave" workers... Even Japan is changing, albeit slowly.

By the way, not talking about you Yu_Bum_suk just incase Wink

Francis-Pax

Joined: 20 Nov 2005

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:47 pm Post subject:

xingyiman wrote:

Quote:

I accept that there are somethings that need to change but if the place is so terrible and makes you so cynical, maybe the best thing for your mental health is to -- LEAVE.

Things probably aren't going to change (and why should they just for us anyway?), and the sad fact is that the way these people come across on this board is probably how they are back home as well.

I am in total agreement with you.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:05 am Post subject:

pest2 wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

pest2 wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

That's interesting. Just about all of the intelligent people I've met here liked Korea and agreed that the positives outweighted the negatives. In my experience it was the racists and xenophobes who were quite keen on noticing flaws and problems and then blowing them way out of proportion.

Like I said, Urban, ignorance is bliss! Very Happy

If that were true though, the whiners would be extremely happy! Laughing

duh...ignorance is only there for the ones who think they're in a state of bliss... the others just get online and write about what they see... sorry I keep screwing with your dream urban. Sad

Trust me, you're not screwing with my dream, you're superimposing your fantasy on the real world. Laughing

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:14 am Post subject:

nautilus wrote:

Whenever I hear the apologist type gloss over or rationalize the bads here, I think we all immediately think "wimp". (1) Westerners admire assertive and independent people who speak up and don't tolerate BS. And the fact of normality in Korean society is that a load of what we call BS is usual, expected, and accepted.
(2) Thus the only way to really adapt smoothly to Korea is to adapt to taking various degrees of sh*t...wether this means ignoring, glossing over, or not letting it bother you. People who can do this are happier here. (3) People who , in the western sense, fight, resent and stew over every percieved wrong, end up angry, paranoid, and cynical: because its impossible to change Koreans to our liking.

(numbers are mine)

1. These people are the "apologists". We stand up for ourselves, but we do it in a way that allows both sides to save face.

2. If you "adapt to taking various degrees of sh*t" that makes you a "whiner" in my book. If it's crap call the guy on it. 9 times of out 10 if you do this in a respectful manner without cringing like the whiners do (and then come later to Dave's to rant about it because they don't have the guts to stand up to the boss) you can come to a decision that you both can live COMFORTABLY with. Remember all they usually want is to "save face" in a confrontation. If you let them do that you can usually get everything that you want (at least that's been my experience)

3. Why do you think they "fight, resent and stew on here.." Because they don't have the cojones to do it in the 'real world'. And the few that do usually go about it in a manner which would get them instantly fired in the West.

numazawa

Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: The Concrete Barnyard

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:24 am Post subject:

Who cares what makes people cynical? They're all doing it for ulterior motives anyway.

Real Reality

Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:41 am Post subject:

Francis-Pax wrote:

If Korea bothers you so much, there is a simple solution: Leave!
If Korea makes you depressed, there is a simple solution: Leave!
If Korea makes you angry, there is a simple solution: Leave!
If Korean culture is inferior to your own, there is a simple solution: Leave!
If Korea [insert your own phrase here], there is a simple solution: Leave!
I am getting tired of people who just wine and complain about Korea. This is not your country. Korea can do fine without you, and so can you.
I accept that there are somethings that need to change but if the place is so terrible and makes you so cynical, maybe the best thing for your mental health is to -- LEAVE.

Have you noticed how many Koreans want to leave Korea?

People Leaving Korea Outnumber Arrivals
Including foreigners, the number of people who left the country for a long-term stay stood at 483,000. They outnumbered Koreans and foreigners who came to stay -- 444,000 -- reducing the population by 39,000. Most went to the U.S., which drew 26.6 percent or 89,000, followed by China (19.6 percent), Japan (12.0 percent), Canada (8.7 percent), and Australia (5.5 percent).
Chosun Ilbo (September 22, 2005)
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200509/200509220019.html

Suicide and the Pain of Those Left Behind
Korea is a suicide kingdom. One person dies of suicide every 48 minutes, and one person attempts suicide every 90 seconds. From young children to the elderly, 30 people kill themselves and 960 attempt suicide every day, according to the National Statistical Office.... Cho Yong-beom, who heads the Suicide Prevention Committee, points out that society's inability to accept the problem of suicide and prejudice towards suicides' families are prompting more people to kill themselves.
Chosun Ilbo (February 22, 2006)
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200602/200602220008.html

[EDITORIALS] Without hope, an exodus
Murky political struggles, an unstable society, a failing economy, a social atmosphere that treats the wealthy as criminals, and anti-business sentiment and regulations make people frustrated. Therefore, people are turning their backs on their country or are preparing to do so.
JoongAng Daily (July 27, 2004)
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200407/27/200407272207153409900090109011.html

"Highly Educated Work Force in 20-40 Age Bracket is Leaving"
by Jae-Dong Yu and Ji-Won Jun, Donga.com (August 30, 2004)
http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2004083124608

Young Couples Fill Emigration Fair
Korea Times (September 19, 2004)
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/200409/kt2004091915445010220.htm

Retirees Live Well in Southeast Asia on Allowance of Two Million Won Per Month
Koreans who are spending the rest of lives in the Philippines (Baguio and Angeles), Malaysia (Kuala Lumpur and Kota Kinabalu), Nepal (Kathmadu and Pokhara), and Thailand (Bangkok and Chiang Mai) turned out to be satisfied with their lives in foreign countries. The cost of living is, even though there is a little difference depending on individual cases, two million won per month in Philippines, from 2.2 million to 2.5 million won in Malaysia, 1.5 million won in Nepal, and from 2 million to 2.2 million won in Thailand. This cost includes traveling expenses to Korea (a couple of times per year), payment for hired domestic workers and playing golf.
by Dong-Woo Chung, Donga.com (September 26, 2005)
http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2005092693878

Barking Mad Lord Snapcase

Joined: 04 Nov 2003

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:00 am Post subject:

Francis-Pax wrote:

Would you tell Mike Moore to leave the USA? He at least has the democratic right to criticise his own country.

Would you tell the Muslim protesters in London to pack up and leave? They are benefiting from the very same free speech that they resent so much.

Has your OWN country ever made you angry, depressed or cynical?

Be careful what advice you give. The waegook you're working with might just follow it.

nautilus

Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:18 am Post subject:

laogaiguk wrote:

There are a lot of business practices I would love to educate some Koreans about, but then again, same back home.)

The difference is back home you can make yourself fully understood instantly without working through a minefield of potential misunderstandings and cultural differences. In the west you can always approach the manager at short notice, and are not left out of the loop.

Here, the language barrier is formidable for a start. Even a boss/head teacher who has a fairly good grasp of English still easily misinterprets messages- never mind the game of chinese whispers that forms the chain of communication.

But yes: when Koreans speak English more/far better than they do now, they will start to hear/accept our ideas faster.

Silly thought: but imagine if all Korean Americans/ Koreans living in the west were suddenly repatriated back here and given good positions of authority in the workplace. Imagine the change for the better here- the new ideas, the injection of common sense.

philinkorea

Joined: 27 Jan 2003

Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:48 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Most of the intelligent people I've met here -- and I'll be the first to criticize myself here for making an overly-sweeping generalization based on "I've met here" -- are the ones who were quite keen on noticing flaws and problems. What do we learn in University (not so much in korea-- in the west I mean)? We learn how to be analytical!!! And with the habit of analysis, critique, and criticism can also come what other, less analytical types would call, "negativity" and "cynicism". Why? Because our analyses and criticisms are about things that affect us personally. So it is only natural that those will sound more like complaints than objective observations. If you wanna have a good time in Korea, be a little LESS thoughtful and LESS interested in making critical judgements about the place. A bit counterintuitive maybe, but ignorance is bliss!

i see some truth in that myself. relates to a friend of mine who was very cynical about korea. i was there 2 years and i enjoyed it. i'd had enough by the end of it though and i never looked back. for me though when i tries to learn korean, learn about the culture and the people you realise more and more how exclusive it is. i felt chewed up by the culture so to speak. i find people who have the best times are those types who love that no responsibility lifestyle, drinking, random women etc you got more at uni ,, not really worrying about the future. since ive got back i have felt a lot of improvement in myself and realising good qualities in my own country and felt much more of a purpose. korea can potentially drain away your ambition and make people lose themselves. i did have good times there though. i'm glad i went and would never say i regret it. was a very unique time and i feel i made the most of it

JZer

Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Location: South Korea

Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:04 pm Post subject:

Quote:

How positively can you interpret being exploited and left feeling powerless, by a people who's motives are transparent, immature vestiges of the 1950's?

Natilus, lets see some real evidence o back this up! If you have been exploited, why are you still here?

JZer

Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Location: South Korea

Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:08 pm Post subject:

Quote:

the new ideas, the injection of common sense.

nautilus wrote,
Are you sure that you did not mean the injection of your definition of common sense?

JZer

Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Location: South Korea

Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:15 pm Post subject:

Quote:

laogaiguk, nice post. There is a lot of pettiness back home. If you don't realize it must be your first job or you just let things slip off easily. I was recently in grad school surrounded by many professors. One of my classmates started receiving the worst grade on every assignment after the teacher heard from a friend that the student did not like the professor. The students comment was the result of her thinking the class was too easy and wanted to discuss the material with the professor in further detail during office hours. The professor could not be bothered and this led to my friends comment that was eventually reported back to the professor.

JZer

Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Location: South Korea

Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:22 pm Post subject:

Quote:

When all is said and done.....it is their country.

If you keep that in mind you can remain sane. I could sit here and pick apart what is wrong with Korea but at the end of the day it is their country and I know that I will eventually return home.

P.S. Don't forget we could also make a list of hundreds of things that are wrong in our home country as well.

Barking Mad Lord Snapcase

Joined: 04 Nov 2003

Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:25 pm Post subject:

JZer wrote:

Quote:

How positively can you interpret being exploited and left feeling powerless, by a people who's motives are transparent, immature vestiges of the 1950's?

Natilus, lets see some real evidence o back this up! If you have been exploited, why are you still here?

Evidence? Are you injecting your own definition of common sense? Or universal common sense? Or are you injecting your cultural definition of logic?

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?p=738281

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