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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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 Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| When do we put this one in the "Wars America has lost" column? |
Got your fingers crossed do you?
This war is much bigger than Iraq . Did you see the article about the bases that R going up in Iraq? |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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Sure permanent bases in Iraq (thanks for that article, BTW).
But how long can the US go it alone (practically) against an entire region?
How does airbases in Iraq put the US in a strategically better position overall?
Wouldn't Turkey, Kazakstan and Afghanistan have been enough?
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| So let's wait until it's over before we declare victory or defeat. |
True. But perhaps the idea of a democratic Iraq was- at one point 4 years ago- a noble idea, but poor planning and therefore poor execution (of everything except the initial attack and decaptiation of the regime and army) have left things a real mess.
It ain't lookin too good at all right now.
I'd really like to think that the US will be able to sort out the the various factions and get a functioning self-governing Iraq, and that they are following a solid plan for doing so, but man, you'd have to be optimistic to the point of willful blindness right now to believe that.
Hearts and minds? Forget it, that's unattainable.
2 or 3 isolated, heavily fortified super-bases in a sea of chaos... doesn't sound like victory... |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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Afghanistan touches Iran but not Saudi Arabia or Syria.
W/ Bases the US can conduct miltary operations around the region. With them the US can get to a lot of places faster and quicker then they could before.
They might be an ok place for the US to launch airstrikes or engage in targeted assassinations of Al Qaeda fighters or Hezzbollah supporters or the like.
They could be a real help if the US wants to launch airstrikes against any government, any group or anyone in the region.
Turkey wouldn't let the US use its bases for attacks on Iraq in gulf war II. They very well could say no again. They might also ask for the right to go after the Kurds in exchange for allowing the US to use airbases.
And I really can't see Qatar letting the US launch any massive attacks against another country from their soil. The Kurds very likely would. they don't like Iran , Syria , the Bathists , or Al Qaeda much.
If those who support Khomeni , Bin Laden or the Bathists don't want the US to bomb them to hell - all they have to do is give up their war.
Sounds simple enough. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| When do we put this one in the "Wars America has lost" column? |
Got your fingers crossed do you?
This war is much bigger than Iraq . Did you see the article about the bases that R going up in Iraq? |
Ah yes, the long war. Maybe Iraq will just go down as the first battle America loses in the long war... |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| When do we put this one in the "Wars America has lost" column? |
Got your fingers crossed do you?
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Ah yes, the long war. Maybe Iraq will just go down as the first battle America loses in the long war... |
Hates the US so much that he seems to root for Al Qaeda, Khomeni lovers and or the Bathists.
The Klan hates America too. Why don't you side with them while you are at it?
Some liberal you turned out to be 
Ah the difference between liberals and left wing nationalists. You can see it here.
Hey liberals out there. This is what dwells in the hearts of libertarian left wing nationalists - and it is not pretty. You sure you want to be friends with these types?
You all might dislike Bush - ok - but look at what these people really wish for.
Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:25 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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well Joo, you seem to be unreasonably optimistic in your certainty that the current administration a) has a solid plan and b) is able to follow that plan.
I admire the unwavering strength of your convictions but I think I'm too much of a realist to put any faith in that position.
It'd be nice surprise if you proved us all wrong a few years from now. But I think I said that here a few years ago and things still don't look so good. |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Quote: |
| When do we put this one in the "Wars America has lost" column? |
Got your fingers crossed do you?
| Quote: |
Ah yes, the long war. Maybe Iraq will just go down as the first battle America loses in the long war... |
Hates the US so much that he seems to root for Al Qaeda, Khomeni lovers and or the Bathists.
The Klan hates America too. Why don't you side with them while you are at it?
Some liberal you turned out to be
Ah the difference between liberals and left wing nationalists. You can see it here.
Hey liberals out there. This is what dwells in the hearts of libertarian left wing nationalists - and it is not pretty. You sure you want to be friends with these types?
You all might dislike Bush - ok - but look at what these people really wish for. |
Joo- I would call this a mean spirited and deliberate misreading of MMT's post.
So, if you were watching the baseball game between Japan and Korea on Sunday, and noted, in the 8th inning, that Korea was losing, does that mean you were cheering for Japan? Pretty specious logic.
But what is one to expect. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| When do we put this one in the "Wars America has lost" column? |
Got your fingers crossed do you?
This war is much bigger than Iraq . Did you see the article about the bases that R going up in Iraq? |
Ah yes, the long war. Maybe Iraq will just go down as the first battle America loses in the long war... |
So, here is Iraq's pessimistic pundit. I'll admit, you're looking a little bit better than the polyanna variety, but it still seems you're jumping the gun. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Quote: |
| When do we put this one in the "Wars America has lost" column? |
Got your fingers crossed do you?
| Quote: |
Ah yes, the long war. Maybe Iraq will just go down as the first battle America loses in the long war... |
Hates the US so much that he seems to root for Al Qaeda, Khomeni lovers and or the Bathists.
The Klan hates America too. Why don't you side with them while you are at it?
Some liberal you turned out to be
Ah the difference between liberals and left wing nationalists. You can see it here.
Hey liberals out there. This is what dwells in the hearts of libertarian left wing nationalists - and it is not pretty. You sure you want to be friends with these types?
You all might dislike Bush - ok - but look at what these people really wish for. |
You're raving. All that is missing is some random bolding and underlining like Igotthisguitar. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| You're raving. All that is missing is some random bolding and underlining like Igotthisguitar. |
Don't you and him share a wish for the US to fail? |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:02 am Post subject: |
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W/ Bases the US can conduct miltary operations around the region. With them the US can get to a lot of places faster and quicker then they could before.
They might be an ok place for the US to launch airstrikes or engage in targeted assassinations of Al Qaeda fighters or Hezzbollah supporters or the like.
They could be a real help if the US wants to launch airstrikes against any government, any group or anyone in the region.
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Joo:
Isn't there something just a tad nihilisitc about your vision here? Thousands of Iraqis and Americans are dying in order to make the middle east safe for...air strikes and assassinations?
I mean, how exactly do you think that launching all these air strikes and assassinations is gonna make the middle east any more stable for the US? Iraq was invaded and is being occupied by the Americans. Did the anti-Americans in Iraq just say "oh well, looks like the Americans won, guess we're gonna have to make nice and put down our weapons." You know the answer to that question as well as I do, Joo.
I know, I know. Bombing the hell out of these countries will force their governments take a hard line against the Islamists. But again, look at Iraq. The Iraqi government definitely has an incentive to crack down on their insurgents, and look how much success they're having. Do you think that other middle eastern governments would be any more successful, just because the US lobs a few missles at them?
There's a touching naivete about all the can-do optimism of these "hail mary pass" scenarios that the pro-war crowd is now trotting out in their ever more desperate attempts to keep up the morale. "You know, if Cheney goes to Iraq and starts delivering some serious straight talk to the people, and if the Sunnis realize that they have a stake in the process, and if the Shiites watch Brokeback Mountain and see that hanging gays in the street isn't such a good idea and secular democracy is the way to go, then maybe the insurgency will be crushed and civil war averted and Iraq will become a model for democracy in the middle east and a loyal ally in the war against terror and blah blah blah".
And the absolutley hilarious thing is: if the US is still in Iraq four years from now, the pro-occupation people will probably still be making arguments like the one above, still referring to some time in the future. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:56 am Post subject: |
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OTOH
1) Saddam killed 300,000 Iraqis , would have killed more were he not been contained. He also planned to attack other nations. It is not like he gave up his war or his designs to conquer the mideast. . On top of all that his sons were coming up next.
The US could not contain Saddam forever.
There is no humanitarian argument against the war.
2) Are you going to tell us all that the security services of the NEW Iraqi government are anything close to par with other mideast nations? I don't know how you can make such a comparison.
Other mideast nations have VERY effective and competent security services. That is why their grip on power is so strong. Indeed some of them are not much different from the government of North Korea. The government pays the salaries of the clerics, They control the media and they know what the elites of their nations are doing.
3) Teaching hate , funding Al Qaida , planning terror and inciting violence are the main causes of terror. and in this modern world acts of war against the US by governments and or groups.
No I don't think the US ought to worry about not striking back too hard. I don't think the US ought to pull its punches.
The US was attacked on 9-11 but also before 9-11.
If the US were in the mideast to steal their oil then I would oppose the war. But the US is in the mideast to force governments and groups in the region to give up their war.
If those fighting the US don't want to give up their war against the US then the US is justified in hitting them with anything and everything the US has , will have or can think of.
That is why the US will win. The US can hit them harder than they can hit the US. At some point the groups and governments that are fighting the US will get hit so hard that they will say uncle. Because the US will not tolerate a continued war against it by nations and or non state actors. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
2) Are you going to tell us all that the security services of the NEW Iraqi government are anything close to par with other mideast nations? I don't know how you can make such a comparison.
Other mideast nations have VERY effective and competent security services. That is why their grip on power is so strong. Indeed some of them are not much different from the government of North Korea. The government pays the salaries of the clerics, They control the media and they know what the elites of their nations are doing.
3) Teaching hate , funding Al Qaida , planning terror and inciting violence are the main causes of terror. and in this modern world acts of war against the US by governments and or groups.
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Okay Joo. I'll concede the possibility that an extended campaign of assassinations and air strikes, launched from Iraq, could make Middle Eaatern governments more likely to toe the US line. However...
What makes you think that the Iraqis themselves would go along with this? I don't know of too many countries who are really hepped up about the idea of being a base for some other country's wars. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:40 am Post subject: |
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I think the Kurds would go along US bases there would be safe as . as for the others well - then see what can be done by hook or crook.Anyway there are Iraqis who will go along with it. Many Sunnis don't like Iran, Sistaini (Most respected Ayatollah ) and Sciri (biggest politcal group ) have sided with the US and not with Iran. and many Shias would like to see Al Qaeda destroyed thanks to Al Qaeda's attacks on them.
I don't think stopping their war = toe the US line. If they want to boycott US goods or not sell the US oil or tell capitalism to get lost -well that is their business. As for that the US ought to let them do as they will.
All they have to do is stop their war.
I mean Khaddafy gave up his war (for the most part ) but otherwise he Idoes pretty much as he pleases.
I would say it again all they have to do is stop their war. Then there won't be any war. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:08 am Post subject: ... |
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Quote:
(Freed scientists will lead us to caches no inspectors could find.) What about remaining danger from Baathist torturers and war criminals forming pockets of resistance and plotting vengeance? (Their death wish is our command.)"
was Saddam in compliance or did he still have lots of stuff that he wasn't allowed to have? |
Care to describe what the "lots of stuff" you are talking about?
Especially considering your contradictions that it's in Syria and the war was about Saudi Arabia?
Were this boxing, you'd have an impressive fake and jab, but it isn't.
This is about fact.
Someone argues down about WMD, then you jump to the Saudis. Or you jump to history.
Again, that would be pretty impressive if it were boxing, but it's not. IT'S FACTS.
When you retreat from one, you're leaving that wide open.
AND YOU REALLY FAIL TO DEFEND all of your 3 point defense.
You just rotate.
And it's silly.
And nothing comes of it. |
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