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Xian
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:00 pm Post subject: Top athiest believes in intelligent design |
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An interesting read on a major anthiest who now believes in intelligent design, though not converted to a specific belief system at this point in time, apart from a deistic mindset. The article link has interesting links to related issues with in it which would probably make the read a bit more interesting.
http://www.existence-of-god.com/flew-abandons-atheism.html
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For years, Antony Flew has been a figurehead for atheists. Now, though, he has abandoned his atheism and accepted the existence of God. In a recent interview for Philosophia Christi with Gary Habermas, Flew explained his new beliefs. Though Flew has not embraced Christianity, he now accepts the existence of God, saying that he ��had to go where the evidence leads��.
This is not the first time that it has been reported that Flew has changed his mind. Twice before, in 2001 and 2003 respectively, it was rumoured that Flew had turned to Christianity; each time Flew quashed the rumours himself. This time, though, the reports are accurate; we have it from Flew himself.
Who is Antony Flew?
Antony Flew is not just any atheist. For decades, he has been a dominant figure in the philosophy of religion, among the most influential of atheist philosophers. He lectured on philosophy at the University of Oxford and the University of Aberdeen, and subsequently held professorships at the University of Keele and the University of Reading. He is the author of the celebrated essays ��Theology and Falsification�� and ��The Presumption of Atheism��, and many monographs including Atheistic Humanism and Merely Mortal?: Can You Survive Your Own Death?. He has also represented atheism in published oral debates with William Lane Craig, Gary Habermas, and Thomas Warren.
What does Flew now believe?
Flew has not become a Christian; he has merely accepted the existence of God. He has described his new position as a form of deism. Deists accept that there is a God responsible for creating the universe, but reject claimed special revelation such as the Bible.
For Flew, this rejection of special revelation is not non-negotiable; Flew expresses an openness to the possibility of special revelation, and acknowledges that there is some evidence supporting the view that the Bible is such, but he makes it clear that his present view is that God does not intervene, and has not intervened, in human affairs since Creation.
What changed Flew��s mind?
Although Flew now believes that the case for the existence of God is powerful, he continues to reject outright the ontological, cosmological, and moral arguments for God��s existence.
For Flew, it is the argument from design that shows that the existence of God is probable. He has been impressed by recent scientific developments that suggest that the universe is the product of intelligent design. ��It now seems to me that the findings of more than fifty years of DNA research have provided materials for a new and enormously powerful argument to design,�� explains Flew.
Flew cites Gerald Schroeder��s work The Hidden Face of God and Roy Abraham Varghese��s The Wonder of the World: A Journey from Modern Science to the Mind of God as particularly impressive. In the foreword to the new (and final) edition of his God and Philosophy, which Flew now describes as ��an historical relic��, he acknowledges that the argument from design ��becomes progressively more powerful with every advance in humankind��s knowledge of the integrated complexity of what used to be called the ��system of nature��.�� As this progress continues, perhaps more will follow Flew��s lead in conceding ground to theism.
Atheist Response
For atheists, this shift in Flew��s beliefs is highly embarrassing. To have such a prominent atheist accept the case for God��s existence is a major blow. To see how major a blow, consider the words of About.com��s resident atheist Austin Cline on October 16th, 2004:
��Have you read the news about Antony Flew abandoning atheism? This would be big news because Flew is one of the most prominent atheist philosophers of the 20th century. It would be big news, that is, if it were true.��
Cline is spot-on both on Flew��s status among atheists and on the significance of his abandonment of atheism. His initial dismissal of the news as wishful thinking by believers (��Is it any wonder that so many nonbelievers look upon religion as little more than wish-fulfillment writ large? It seems as though almost anything even vaguely related to their religion can become infected by the same viral error of logic��) was too hasty, however, as Flew has now confirmed.
Some atheists have tried to explain Flew��s shift in thinking by his age; Flew is now 81, and so, it has been suggested, is professing belief in God just in case he soon has to give account of his life to his Maker. That is clearly not the case; Flew remains adamant that there is no afterlife—disembodied existence, he maintains (as he has always maintained) is impossible. In any case, Flew is not professing the kind of belief that any religion says will get you into heaven; he still rejects all purported divine revelation, including the Bible, the Koran, and any other example you��d care to mention. There��s no way that Flew, suddenly facing his own mortality, is trying to cover his bases just in case God exists. What has happened, is seems, is what he says has happened: he has gone where the evidence leads. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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As an agnostic I don't have a problem the idea that a higher power could have intelligently designed the universe and created the physical laws which govern us.
I don't have a problem with such a belief, which could encompass the coexistence of both evolutionary theories and intelligent design.
But I do have a problem with what is being taught in schools as an inherently Xian version of intelligent design which does not encompass evolutionary theories.
That some prominent atheist recants doesn't make me suddenly believe that man never evolved from apes and that Adam and Eve sprang forth fully formed in the garden of Eden 6,000 years ago.
Available through What The Book
Last edited by Bulsajo on Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| WTF is a top atheist? It's not an organization. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| WTF is a top atheist? It's not an organization. |
I've always found "professional atheist" types a little goofy. I can understand being a "professional fan of church/state separation", or a "professional opponent of relgious authority", but to define yourself according to a disbelief in a certain thing is kinda wierd. Has anyone ever been called a "top non-believer in elves"?
Anyway, professional atheists usually have this quaint, smart-aleck undergraduate quality about them. The Bad Boy At The Sunday School, as it were. It doesn't surprise me that a few of them would go over to creationism. |
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out of context
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
Location: Daejeon
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| the_beaver wrote: |
| WTF is a top atheist? It's not an organization. |
I can't help but picture something like SPECTRE. "Number 6 has defected to the enemy camp! He must be eliminated."
A "top atheist" seems to be something that certain Christian groups create so that they can feel like they've had a victory when something like this happens. If there were a veritable movement of people saying "Flew accepted ID? Well, by gum, I'll do it too," that would be one thing, but just this one dude? So what?
I do agree with OTOH about "professional atheists"; I think it seems to be something more for people who just like to hear the sounds of their own voices. I'm no more comfortable around people loudly proclaiming their lack of religion than around people loudly proclaiming their religious faith; both seem to indicate insecurity.
I think one of the big problems is that the term "atheist" itself defines people in terms of what they don't believe. So, for that matter, does "agnostic". There are other terms that offer a more positive definition, one that emphasizes what such people do believe, but are not part of the popular vocabulary. As long as the negative definition is the dominant one, it feeds into the whole idea that these are people who are lacking in something, and therefore secretly desire to fill that gap. |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 2:20 am Post subject: |
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Antony Flew has been a well-known and respected philosopher, especially among his peers in the academic community of philosophy profs.
I've read some of his work, mainstream philosophical stuff, yet find the man more interesting that his ideas.
He went to St. Faith's prep school in Cambridge, taught at Christ Church after WWII, when he'd learned and used Japanese to help the war effort. Decades later he retired from full time teaching a quarter century ago and then taught a few semesters in Toronto at YorkU.
By being a "top atheist" is meant he's one of the most respected writers, thinkers and indeed professional philosophers writing on the subject. If it isn't obvious.  |
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SirFink
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 2:32 am Post subject: |
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As an atheist myself, I have to say this news shakes me to my core! I---I'm actually starting to think I've been wrong all these years! Maybe, just maybe, there is a God. I mean if this guy--so well-respected and all--can change, maybe, maybe so can I. I was wondering why he stopped showing up to our weekly secret meetings. Oops! I mean, did I say "secret meetings?" Hrmmm.. maybe I shouldn't have turned those Mormon missionaries away from my door today.  |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| the_beaver wrote: |
| WTF is a top atheist? It's not an organization. |
Do the athiests have a Pope? I am still trying to figure out "top athiest".
This is a sad attempt Xian, even for a fundi like you. |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| the_beaver wrote: |
| WTF is a top atheist? It's not an organization. |
Do the athiests have a Pope? I am still trying to figure out "top athiest".
This is a sad attempt Xian, even for a fundi like you. |
One more reason to be skeptical of the one's who push intelligent design.
Actually, I have my own theory on the creation of the universe. I believe that God created the universe to make a name for himself---He really wanted his parents to stop nagging, "Why can't you be more like your brother Zeus?" Being that God was a slacker, and really didn't care how things turned out just as long as he got his parents off his back, he only put 6 days into creating the universe. Then He went back to bed on the 7th day. And there you have it. I call it 'cynical design'. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| Of course the top Christian (ie the Pope) believes in evolution. So I guess there's some balance. |
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Porter_Goss
Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Location: The Wrong Side of Right
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:01 am Post subject: |
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It's really sad what 83 years can do to the human mind.
"I hope I die before I get old." |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:44 am Post subject: |
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Topics such as genetic engineering, outer planetry development/ planet forming, extension of life, cloning, etc are entering our vocabulary. Ideas that would have been considered impossible 100/ 200 years ago are now being thought of as possible in our life time.
Yet certain individuals are so adament that God/El Shadai/Allah/ etc cannot exist. That its impossible in a Universe as vast as ours that someone didn't get there before us and that we aren't nothing more than an accident or mixing of atoms.
I sometimes wonder if we are nothing more than a lab experiment, placed as far away as possible from other habitable planets for fear of contamination, while created just as in the future we will or our decendents (God willing) will create new forms of life/ improve planets and move onto greater tasks.
Why is it impossible that someone got there first? Are we just rehashing old arguments that we have been taught? Or can we hope to imagine something greater than what we are now and try to emulate or achieve the impossible today or work towards it in the future?
I am an idealist, willing to believe that there is something greater out there than ourselves or hoping to become it. Laugh if you will, it doesn't matter to me, I would rather reach for the stars than ...... |
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jinglejangle
Joined: 19 Feb 2005
Location: Far far far away.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: Top athiest believes in intelligent design |
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| Quote: |
Some atheists have tried to explain Flew��s shift in thinking by his age; Flew is now 81, and so, it has been suggested, is professing belief in God just in case he soon has to give account of his life to his Maker. That is clearly not the case; Flew remains adamant that there is no afterlife—disembodied existence, he maintains (as he has always maintained) is impossible. |
That's odd. I wonder what form he thinks the Creator takes then? |
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Xian
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| the_beaver wrote: |
| WTF is a top atheist? It's not an organization. |
Do the athiests have a Pope? I am still trying to figure out "top athiest".
This is a sad attempt Xian, even for a fundi like you. |
Attempt at what? It isn't my article, I posted it for discussion.
laogaiguk
You are like the person in the group who needs to have the first and last say on everything. Stop being so paranoid. Anytime a thread goes spiritual you are there to refute with no solid argument and criticism for the spiritually minded. The article doesn't support Christianity, but does promote many interesting implications for people such as Mr Flew and those who are open enough to have a look into the possibilities that there might be intelligent design. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Xian wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
| the_beaver wrote: |
| WTF is a top atheist? It's not an organization. |
Do the athiests have a Pope? I am still trying to figure out "top athiest".
This is a sad attempt Xian, even for a fundi like you. |
Attempt at what? It isn't my article, I posted it for discussion.
laogaiguk
You are like the person in the group who needs to have the first and last say on everything. Stop being so paranoid. Anytime a thread goes spiritual you are there to refute with no solid argument and criticism for the spiritually minded. The article doesn't support Christianity, but does promote many interesting implications for people such as Mr Flew and those who are open enough to have a look into the possibilities that there might be intelligent design. |
The entire article is an obvious critisism of non-religious folk, and that is why you posted it. What discussion is there? ONE guy has decided (at 83) that intelligent design has merit.
Xian
You are the crazy fundamentalist that kept our civilization atleast 200 years behind where we should be. |
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