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Porter_Goss
Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Location: The Wrong Side of Right
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 Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:23 am Post subject: Re: Ann Coulter, is she right about this? |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Real Reality wrote: |
| This is the only country on Earth that thinks it's not sporting to consider our own interests in choosing immigrants. Try showing up in any other country on the planet, illiterate and penniless, |
didn't we invite them?
The New Colossus, by Emma Lazarus
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
| Quote: |
| and announcing: "I've seen pictures of your country and it looks great. I think I'd like to live here! Oh, and by the way, would you mind changing all your government and business phone messages, street signs and ballots into my native language? Thanks!" They would laugh you out of the country. |
Given the number of non-native English speakers in the world versus the number of native-English speakers who speak other languages (and it's not just Americans), I think she has it backwards. No other language in the world is as catered to as English is.
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I concur. |
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SirFink
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| capebretoncanadian wrote: |
| Are any of you gonna go down to California and pick oranges for 2 or 3 bucks an hour....no....didn't think so. |
Heck no! Thank goodness we've got a new slave class to do all the dirty work for us, eh? I hadn't really thought of it this way before. Golly, let's keep those illegals coming! I want one of my very own! No two! My very own slaves to do my bidding and if they complain I'll just threaten to call immigration. OSHA? EEOC? They're too ignorant to have ever heard of such things! Really gives me the upper hand, doesn't it?
Oh, of course I'm being sarcastic! Anyone -- especially giant US corporations -- who support legalizing the 12 million illegals are doing it because they care about these poor, oppressed people who really just want to earn an honest wage for an honest day's work and to send the money home to their starving children. Ah, such charity! Gotta love those nice, bleeding-heart liberal CEOs of major US corporations.  |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
And how are wages kept so low? Because of an inexaustable supply of illegal labour from Mexico. |
This is probably a myth. According to a couple studies mentioned in the present issue of this week's economist (last week's as of tomorrow), wages have been hardly impacted.
Myths and Migration
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An alternative approach, pioneered by George Borjas, of Harvard University, is to tease out the effect of immigration from national wage statistics. Mr Borjas divides people into categories, according to their education and work experience. He assumes that workers of different types are not easily substitutable for each other, but that immigrants and natives within each category are. By comparing wage trends in categories with lots of immigrants against those in groups with only a few, he derives an estimate of immigration's effect. His headline conclusion is that, between 1980 and 2000, immigration caused average wages to be some 3% lower than they would otherwise have been. Wages for high-school drop-outs were dragged down by around 8%.
Immigration's critics therefore count Mr Borjas as an ally. But hold on. These figures take no account of the offsetting impact of extra investment. If the capital stock is assumed to adjust, Mr Borjas reports, overall wages are unaffected and the loss of wages for high-school drop-outs is cut to below 5%. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 6:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| How are U.S. citizens reacting to the sudden rise in immigrants' numbers and aspirations? Some are enraged about broken borders and the rule of law. But many simply accept the phenomenon -- and quite a few are positive about it. |
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5343138
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MEXICO CITY, Mexico (AP) -- "The Great American Boycott" is spreading south of the border, as activists call for Mexicans to boycott U.S. businesses on May 1.
The protest is timed to coincide with a May 1 boycott of work and shopping in the United States that also has been dubbed "A Day Without Immigrants." The boycott, which grew out of huge pro-migrant marches across the United States, is designed to pressure Congress to legalize millions of undocumented people.
Mexican unions, political and community groups, newspaper columnists and even some Mexican government offices have joined the call in recent days.
"Remember, nothing gringo on May 1," advises one of the many e-mails being circulated among Internet users in Mexico.
"On May 1, people shouldn't buy anything from the interminable list of American businesses in Mexico," reads another. "That means no Dunkin' Donuts, no McDonald's, Burger King, Starbucks, Sears, Krispy Kreme or Wal-Mart."
For some it's a way to express anti-U.S. sentiment, while others see it as part of a cross-border, Mexican-power lobby.
In some cases, advocates incorrectly identified firms as American -- Sears stores in Mexico, for example, have been owned by Mexican billionaire Carlos Slim since 1997.
And ironically, the protest targets the U.S. business community, which is one of the strongest supporters of legalization or guest-worker programs.
"At the end of the day, boycotting would only hurt corporations that are backing what people want done in the immigration bill," said Larry Rubin, CEO of the American Chamber of Commerce in Mexico. Rubin is encouraging people to write to their legislators instead of boycotting.
Roberto Vigil of the California-based immigrants rights group Hermandad Mexicana said his group has asked some of Mexico's largest labor unions to back the protest. Elias Bermudez, president of the Phoenix-based Immigrants Without Borders, is actively promoting the boycott in interviews with Mexican radio and television stations.
Mexican groups are responding. Pablo Gonzalez, spokesman for one of Mexico's largest labor unions, the Federation of Revolutionary Workers and Farmers, said his organization will support a boycott against "at least four of the most important U.S. firms, among them Wal-Mart," Mexico's largest retailer.
Two other major labor groups -- the telephone workers' and auto workers' unions -- also are expected to join, Vigil said.
Even parts of the Mexican government have signed onto the protest.
"We are not going to be buying any products from the United States on May 1," said Lolita Parkinson, national coordinator for the National Board of State Offices on Attention for Migrants, which represents state government-run migrant aid offices.
For some, the boycott is fueled not just by debate on the immigration bill, but by long-standing resentment over the perceived mistreatment of Mexicans in the United States.
"We want to show the power we have as Mexicans," said Carlos Chavez y Pacho, vice president of the chamber of commerce in Piedras Negras, across from Eagle Pass, Texas. Chavez y Pacho is also urging Mexicans not to shop in U.S. border cities on May 1, in part to protest what he calls arrogant behavior by U.S. customs officials and border officers.
Rafael Ruiz Harrell, who writes a column in the Mexico City newspaper Metro, predicted the boycott could give rise to a broader, pan-Latino movement.
"If we could get all of Latin America, for one day, to leave the U.S. firms without customers, we would be sending the kind of clear message they seem incapable of understanding," he wrote. |
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/04/14/mexico.boycott.ap/index.html
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 6:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| She has the same writing style as Realreality. |
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Yo!Chingo
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: Seoul Korea
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:36 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If it wasn't for all these 'immigrants'........'guest workers'....whatever...propping up the U.S. economy they'd/you'd be in a less peachy position than currently |
Do illegal migrants really 'prop up the economy' or do they allow people to buy very cheap agricultural products and have housekeepers. The US economy would not collapse if there was a clampdown on illegal migration, especially when you take into account how such immigrants contribute to crime and welfare dependency.
| Quote: |
| Are any of you gonna go down to California and pick oranges for 2 or 3 bucks an hour....no....didn't think so. |
And how are wages kept so low? Because of an inexaustable supply of illegal labour from Mexico. |
Bravo! We limit the supply of illegals and make it harder. The wages go up for legals. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| capebretoncanadian wrote: |
| If it wasn't for all these 'immigrants'........'guest workers'....whatever...propping up the U.S. economy they'd/you'd be in a less peachy position than currently. Are any of you gonna go down to California and pick oranges for 2 or 3 bucks an hour....no....didn't think so. |
This from a country with more of an underclass than the US???!!! Go tell it to the Natives, son. While I agree in principle with your basic claim, it is galling to have the pot call you a kettle. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| Yo!Chingo wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If it wasn't for all these 'immigrants'........'guest workers'....whatever...propping up the U.S. economy they'd/you'd be in a less peachy position than currently |
Do illegal migrants really 'prop up the economy' or do they allow people to buy very cheap agricultural products and have housekeepers. The US economy would not collapse if there was a clampdown on illegal migration, especially when you take into account how such immigrants contribute to crime and welfare dependency.
| Quote: |
| Are any of you gonna go down to California and pick oranges for 2 or 3 bucks an hour....no....didn't think so. |
And how are wages kept so low? Because of an inexaustable supply of illegal labour from Mexico. |
Bravo! We limit the supply of illegals and make it harder. The wages go up for legals. |
except then employers have high labor costs, and therefore have less to invest with, making it harder for business to grow and hire legal workers to help promote the growth.
So, as the article I posted above noted, it really has no impact on us legal workers' wages. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:49 am Post subject: |
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I've been hearing Portuguese in the streets of New Orleans since almost immediately after Katrina. It's a familiar sound to me, because I lived in Brazil for five years, covering South America for NPR. Now I'm on the National Desk, and I've been helping out in the Katrina coverage, but there they are again -- Brazilian voices.
They're part of the army of immigrant workers who came to clean up the city, just days after the storm: guys with Bahian accents hauling debris, women from Minas Gerais scrubbing the mold from hotel rooms. On my third New Orleans stint, in March, I decided it was time to switch to Portuguese and introduce myself.
The Brazilians of New Orleans live a kind of underground existence, because, of course, they're all in America illegally. The United States does not give visas to Brazilians -- at least, not to poor Brazilians like these. When you apply for a tourist visa in the American consulate in Rio, you have to show your bank records. If there's nothing in those accounts, forget it.
So they come illegally. It's more complicated for them than for Mexicans or Central Americans. Without a visa, they can't board a plane bound for the United States. Instead, the Brazilians buy what they call a "package deal." It includes airfare to Mexico City, where they're picked up by the coyotes, or people-smugglers. The coyotes actually stand there holding a sign, like limo drivers at LAX.
After a night in a hotel, the Brazilians are driven to the border in a van, then escorted across the Rio Grande in the middle of the night. On the American side, more coyotes pick them up, drive them out of the "danger zone" in which American Border Patrol might still stop them, and deliver them to Houston. From there, the immigrants make their own way to one of the bigger Brazilian ghettos in Massachusetts, Florida or, increasingly, New Orleans.
The "package deal" doesn't come cheap. Dalvani Silva, who journeyed post-storm clean up, told me she paid $11,000 -- a relative bargain, she says, because she came last year, when it was still easier for Brazilians to sneak across the Rio Grande. At the time, the Border Patrol had a "catch and release" policy: They allowed non-Mexicans to go free, as long as they promised to show up for an immigration court hearing later on. (See John Burnett's story about this from last summer.) But in recent months, the Border Patrol has clamped down, so coyotes transporting Brazilians have to do more sneaking on the American side. That means the price of the "package" is now up around $14,000.
That's money most of those making the journey don't have. They borrow it from loan sharks in Brazil, and they often hand over the deeds to their homes as collateral. Gerson, part of a crew of men rebuilding a Victorian house in New Orleans, is typical. He's been working seven days a week in New Orleans since September, and so far he's managed to send back a few thousand dollars to pay down the loan-shark debt. But the loan is growing at an interest rate of 5 percent -- that's 5 percent a month. Like many of his fellow Brazilians, it'll take Gerson a couple of years just to repay that debt. In other words, two years working in America, just to break even.
Most plan to go home. They miss their families, and the general idea is to work like a dog for three or four years, send back as much cash as possible, then go back to see how much taller your kids have grown. But some think about staying. Several times they asked me, the all-knowing reporter, when the promised amnesty law would be taking effect. I told them they might not want to count on that... at least, not this year. |
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5342957 |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| except then employers have high labor costs, and therefore have less to invest with, making it harder for business to grow and hire legal workers to help promote the growth. |
That's funny, Finland, Japan and indeed Korea seem to have survived pretty well without mass illegal immigration, or large scale immigration full stop. I think you are missing the point that Mith made that lack of cheap labour may act as an incentive for owners to invest in boosting productivity, through automation for example.
In the 1960s and 1970s the UK encouraged immigration of low skilled workers from Pakistan and Bangladesh to work in cotton mills in Lancashire and Yorkshire. Instead of the owners improving productivity, or the government abandoning a clearly declining industry, they thought they could keep it going by importing cheap labour from the subcontinent.
The mills closed, the workers stayed (along with their extended families), and those same Pakistani and Bangladeshi communities have very high levels of welfare dependency and unemployment. Moreover, due to the massive cultural gap between English working class culture and rural Pakistani values, such towns are almost totally segregated, and there exists an unbridgeable, and potentially explosive ethnic divide that did not previously exist.
By importing cheap, low skilled workers from Mexico are you not creating this problem on a mass scale? |
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dulouz
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
WASHINGTON, April 15 — More than 50 million Medicaid recipients will soon have to produce birth certificates, passports or other documents to prove that they are United States citizens, and everyone who applies for coverage after June 30 will have to show similar documents under a new federal law.
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I hated the US Gov't because they showed compassion toward "the poor". When we say "the poor" we mean the world's poor, all of 'em. Not just the one pretty little girl in the photo-jounalists picture. We get ripped off too, there are plenty of fraudsters availabe. This "compassion" has the potential of draining every last cent and then leaving Americans indentured for even more. I don't have one scintilla of remorse since
the foreigners home country should pay these bills. After all, thats what being a soveriegn nation is all about.
Why I hate Xenos
I'm not phobic or dysphillic. Its about that school thing. The Xenos filed a lawsuit and found a sympathetic judge to order American schools to education all of the Xenos' children. There are about 800 million Xeno children and all are now entitled to a quality US education and US taxpayers are required to pay. Again, more indentured servitude. We can't meet the requirement- ever
The above are genuinely legitimate greivences. So much theft based on "goodness". Joe McCarthy wasn't the raving lunatic he was made out to be after all.
I had a bad weekend, I really thought about giving up my US citizenship. the US is just a place to suck cash out of. We are genuinely moving toward a civil war. I heard Germany needs immigrants and I hear they have nice welfare checks. I can even make babies with a nice Baltic girl if thats what they want. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| except then employers have high labor costs, and therefore have less to invest with, making it harder for business to grow and hire legal workers to help promote the growth. |
That's funny, Finland, Japan and indeed Korea seem to have survived pretty well without mass illegal immigration, or large scale immigration full stop. I think you are missing the point that Mith made that lack of cheap labour may act as an incentive for owners to invest in boosting productivity, through automation for example.
In the 1960s and 1970s the UK encouraged immigration of low skilled workers from Pakistan and Bangladesh to work in cotton mills in Lancashire and Yorkshire. Instead of the owners improving productivity, or the government abandoning a clearly declining industry, they thought they could keep it going by importing cheap labour from the subcontinent.
The mills closed, the workers stayed (along with their extended families), and those same Pakistani and Bangladeshi communities have very high levels of welfare dependency and unemployment. Moreover, due to the massive cultural gap between English working class culture and rural Pakistani values, such towns are almost totally segregated, and there exists an unbridgeable, and potentially explosive ethnic divide that did not previously exist.
By importing cheap, low skilled workers from Mexico are you not creating this problem on a mass scale? |
All I'm saying is that argument (ilegal labor brings down wages) is incorrect. I'm not saying illegal labor is necessary or needed. Other arguments are more valid such as the couple others you mentioned: hetrogenous cultures clashing, added health care expenses, etc etc. |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| We get ripped off too, there are plenty of fraudsters availabe. |
There are far more people who want to help the poor and who constantly self sacrifice their own comforts in order to help the poor.
But, nevermind... |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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When things get bad in the U.S., immigrants and minorities are scapegoated. Mexican laborers bring wages down? The working classes always fall for the blame the victim argument. It's such a good distraction from:
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In 2005, Exxon CEO Raked in 190K a Day
Average Americans are struggling to keep up with persistently high gas prices, now approaching $3 a gallon. Testifying before Congress last November, Exxon CEO Lee Raymond blamed the problem on ��global supply and demand�� and assured the public that ��we��re all in this together.��
Last year, Raymond made do with ��a total compensation package�� of just $69.7 million or $190,915 a day, including weekends.
After his haul in 2005, Raymond has decided to retire. It��s seems that, for Raymond, not working is even more lucrative than working:
Exxon is giving Lee Raymond one of the most generous retirement packages in history, nearly $400 million, including pension, stock options and other perks, such as a $1 million consulting deal, two years of home security, personal security, a car and driver, and use of a corporate jet for professional purposes. |
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/exxon-ceo-190k-day/ |
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