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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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 Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:46 am Post subject: ... |
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Anybody who can get the whole version of this article might want to post it:
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OP-ED COLUMNIST
Iraq II or a Nuclear Iran?
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
Published: April 19, 2006
If our choice is another Rummy-led operation on Iran or Iran's going nuclear and our deterring it through classic means, I prefer deterrence. |
Last edited by Nowhere Man on Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:01 am Post subject: |
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Iraq II Or a Nuclear Iran?
April 21, 2006
Thomas L. Friedman from The New York Times
If these are our only choices, which would you rather have:
a nuclear-armed Iran or an attack on Iran's nuclear sites that is carried out and sold to the world by the Bush national security team,
with Don Rumsfeld at the Pentagon's helm?
I'd rather live with a nuclear Iran.
While I know the right thing is to keep all options open,
I have zero confidence in this administration's ability to manage a complex military strike against Iran,
let alone the military and diplomatic aftershocks.
As someone who believed and still believes in the importance of getting Iraq right,
the level of incompetence that the Bush team has displayed in Iraq,
and its refusal to acknowledge any mistakes or remove those who made them,
make it impossible to support this administration in any offensive
military action against Iran.
I look at the Bush national security officials much the way I look at
drunken drivers. I just want to take away their foreign policy driver's
licenses for the next three years. Sorry, boys and girls, you have to stay
home now or take a taxi. Dial 1-800-NATO- CHARGE-A-RIDE. You will not
be driving alone. Not with my car.
If the United States were a parliamentary democracy, the entire Bush
team would be out of office by now, and deservedly so. In Iraq, the
president was supposed to lead, manage and hold subordinates
accountable, and he did not. Condoleezza Rice was supposed to
coordinate, and she did not. Donald Rumsfeld was supposed to listen,
and he did not. But America is not a parliamentary system, and while
some may feel as if this administration's over, it isn't. So what to do? We
Americans can't just take a foreign policy timeout.
At a minimum, a change must be made at the Pentagon. Rumsfeld paints
himself as a concerned secretary, ready to give our generals in Iraq
whatever troops they ask for, but they just haven't asked. This is
hogwash, but even if the generals didn't ask, the relevant question, Mr.
Rumsfeld, is: What did you ask them?
What did you ask them when you saw the looting, when you saw
Saddam's ammo dumps unguarded, when you saw that no one had
control of the Iraq-Syria border and when you saw that Iraq was so
nsecure that militias were sprouting everywhere? What did you ask the
generals? You didn't ask and you didn't tell, because you never
wanted to send more troops. You actually thought we could just smash
Saddam's regime and leave. Insane.
So if our choice is another Rummy-led operation on Iran or Iran's going
nuclear and our deterring it through classic means, I prefer deterrence. A
short diplomatic note to Iran's mullahs will suffice: "Gentlemen, should
you ever use a nuclear device, or dispense one to terrorists, we will
destroy every one of your nuclear sites with tactical nuclear weapons. If
there is any part of this sentence you don't understand, please contact us.
Thank you."
Do I wish there was a third way? Yes. But the only meaningful third way
would be to challenge Iran to face-to-face negotiations about all the issues
that divide us: Iraq, sanctions, nukes. Such diplomacy, though, would
require two things. First, the Bush team would have to make up its mind
on something that has divided it for
five years: Does it want a change of regime in Iran or a change of
behavior? If it will settle only for regime change, then diplomacy has no
chance. The Iranians will never negotiate, and our allies will be wary of
working with us.
Second, if the Bush team is ready to live with a change in Iran's behavior,
diplomacy has a chance but only if it has allies and a credible threat of
force to make the Iranians negotiate seriously. The only way Iran will
strike a grand bargain with the United States is if it thinks America has the
support at home and abroad for a military option (or really severe
sanctions).
The main reason Rumsfeld should leave now is because we can't have a
credible diplomatic or military option vis-a-vis Iran when so many people
feel, as I do, that in a choice between another Rumsfeld-led confrontation
or just letting Iran get nukes and living with it, we should opt for the
latter.
It may be that learning to live with a nuclear Iran is the wisest thing under
any circumstances. But it would be nice to have the option of a diplomatic
deal to end Iran's nuclear program but that
will come only with a credible threat of force. Yet we will not have the
support at home or abroad for that threat as long as Rumsfeld leads the
Pentagon. No one in their right mind would follow this man into another
confrontation and that is a real strategic liability.
Source: (C) 2006 International Herald Tribune.
via ProQuest Information and Learning Company;
All Rights Reserved |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:16 am Post subject: |
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Thank for the heads up Nowhere Man (but please do something about that link- it's screwing up the formatting of this page, big time).
I personally found thought his points about Rumsfeld and a 'third way' to be worth repeating:
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...the only meaningful third way
would be to challenge Iran to face-to-face negotiations about all the issues
that divide us: Iraq, sanctions, nukes. Such diplomacy, though, would
require two things. First, the Bush team would have to make up its mind
on something that has divided it for
five years: Does it want a change of regime in Iran or a change of
behavior? If it will settle only for regime change, then diplomacy has no
chance. The Iranians will never negotiate, and our allies will be wary of
working with us.
Second, if the Bush team is ready to live with a change in Iran's behavior,
diplomacy has a chance but only if it has allies and a credible threat of
force to make the Iranians negotiate seriously. The only way Iran will
strike a grand bargain with the United States is if it thinks America has the
support at home and abroad for a military option (or really severe
sanctions).
The main reason Rumsfeld should leave now is because we can't have a
credible diplomatic or military option vis-a-vis Iran when so many people
feel, as I do, that in a choice between another Rumsfeld-led confrontation
or just letting Iran get nukes and living with it, we should opt for the
latter. |
We already know that there are back-channel negotiations going on with Iran. If they fail, this might partially explain why... |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
Taheri is a CIA mole/operative. Has been for a looooooong time. This disinformation is a plant by America to once again begin escalating things so that the march onward of corporate America through war production and the military industrial complex may continue........
If anyone believes for a second all this talk of "nails" etc....they really are a joke and really don't know a thing about Iran, their people and their intelligence.......HOGWASH , all of this speculation. But then again, the Bush regime lives on this type of natural fertilizer....
DD |
any proof for your conspiracy theory?
Of course not.
Moonbat.
Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:50 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| When you've got two nuclear armed powers (USA and Israel) on your border and one of them flattened the neighbor you fought for years and couldn't crack and that nuclear power flattened them in a long weekend with superior fire power, and that nuclear armed nation seems to refuse to accept you're progressing slowly towards democracy on your own terms, well, it seems to me the only logical choice is develop a nuclear deterrent. |
Why did Iran attack the US in the past? What was the problem then?
Iran has been attacking the US for a long time.
Yes or no?
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Shipment of high explosives intercepted in Iraq
Most sophisticated of roadside bombs reportedly coming from Iran |
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8829929/
9/11 Commission Finds Ties Between al-Qaeda and Iran
Senior U.S. officials have told TIME that the 9/11 Commission's report will cite evidence suggesting that the 9/11 hijackers had previously passed through Iran
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,664967,00.html
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| On June 25, 1996, Iran again attacked America at Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, exploding a huge truck bomb that devastated Khobar Towers and murdered 19 U.S. airmen as they rested in their dormitory. These young heroes spent every day risking their lives enforcing the no-fly zone over southern Iraq; that is, protecting Iraqi Shiites from their own murderous tyrant. When I visited this horrific scene soon after the attack, I watched dozens of dedicated FBI agents combing through the wreckage in 120-degree heat, reverently handling the human remains of our brave young men. More than 400 of our Air Force men and women were wounded in this well-planned attack, and I was humbled by their courage and spirit. I later met with the families of our lost Khobar heroes and promised that we would do whatever was necessary to bring these terrorists to American justice. The courage and dignity these wonderful families have consistently exemplified has been one of the most powerful experiences of my 26 years of public service. |
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110003518
Iran responsible for 1983 Marine barracks bombing, judge rules
Friday, May 30, 2003 Posted: 11:14 PM EDT (0314 GMT)
Marines search through the rubble for their missing comrades after the 1983 barracks bombing in Beirut, Lebanon.
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Iran is responsible for the 1983 suicide bombing of a U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut, Lebanon, that killed 241 American servicemen, a U.S. District Court judge ruled Friday.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/05/30/iran.barracks.bombing/
Amir Taheri: Khomeinists hammering new strategy to oust 'Great Satan'
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But at almost exactly the same time, militants from some 40 countries spread across the globe were trekking to Tehran for a 10-day "revolutionary jamboree" in which "a new strategy to confront the American Great Satan" will be hammered out. The event is scheduled to start on February 1 to mark the 25th anniversary of the return to Iran from exile of the late Ayatollah Khomeini, the founder of the "Islamic Revolution".
It is not clear how many militants will attend, but the official media promise a massive turnout to underline the Islamic Republic's position as the "throbbing heart of world resistance to American arrogance."
The guest list reads like a who-is-who of global terror.
In fact, most of the organisations attending the event, labelled "Ten-Days of Dawn", are branded by the US and some European Union members as terrorist outfits. For more than two decades, Tehran has been a magnet for militant groups from many different national and ideological backgrounds.
The Islamic Republic's hospitality cuts across even religious divides. Militant Sunni organisations, including two linked to Al Qaida, Ansar al-Islam (Companions of Islam) and Hizb Islami (The Islamic Party), enjoy Iranian hospitality.
They are joined by Latin American guerrilla outfits, clandestine Irish organisations, Basque and Corsican separatists, and a variety of leftist groups from Spartacists to Trotskyites and Guevarists. Tehran is the only capital where all the Palestinian militant movements have offices and, in some cases, training and financial facilities. |
http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/04/01/28/109235.html
Iran also killed the translators of the book the Satanic Verses in countries as far away as Japan.
Now would you mind explaining that? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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Iran leader met top terrorist
Abraham Rabinovich
Jerusalem
April 24, 2006
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IRANIAN President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad met one of the world's most notorious terrorists in Damascus earlier this year to discuss retaliatory attacks on Western targets in the event that Iran's nuclear sites were struck, according to intelligence experts.
A report yesterday in London's The Sunday Times said Mr Ahmadinejad, during an official visit to Syria in January, conferred with Lebanese-born Imad Mugniyeh -- commander of overseas operations for Hezbollah, the Iranian-affiliated Shia militia in Lebanon.
Mugniyeh is said to have been responsible for the deaths of more Americans than any living person prior to al-Qa'ida's attack on the US on September 11, 2001. His operatives bombed the US embassy in Beirut in 1983, killing 63 people.
Six months later, he directed a suicide bombing of a Marine Corps barracks in Beirut that killed 241 Americans. He is also held responsible for the torture killing of a CIA station chief in Lebanon as well as the bombing of the Israeli embassy and a Jewish community centre in Buenos Aires in the 1990s, successful attacks that took scores of lives and established his reputation as a formidable terrorist capable of executing attacks outside the Arab world.
He would subsequently blow up US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania with car bombs.
The Sunday Times said US officials and Israeli intelligence sources believe that Mugniyeh, who is on the FBI's most-wanted terrorists list, has taken charge of plotting retaliatory attacks against the West in the event that US President George W.Bush orders a strike against Iran's nuclear sites.
During his Damascus visit, Mr Ahmadinejad reportedly met leaders of groups Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and Hamas.
Michael Ledeen, a former member of the US National Security Council, said last week that senior American officials confirmed Mugniyeh's presence at the Damascus meeting. Mr Ledeen said Mugniyeh had altered his face and fingerprints in order to make his identification difficult.
Jane's Intelligence Review has cited "reports in recent weeks" of Mugniyeh's presence alongside the Iranian leader.
An Israeli defence source cited by the newspaper said that Mugniyeh met regularly with Iranian Intelligence Minister Ghkolamhossein Mohseni Ezhei, an appointee of Mr Ahmadinejad.
"Since we know from previous Iranian terror attacks that it takes about a year to plan a substantial one," the source said, "we should not be surprised if operations against Western targets are already in high gear. Mugniyeh is certainly playing a major role."
A former CIA official, Robert Baer, who hunted Mugniyeh in the 1980s, has described him as "the most dangerous terrorist we have ever faced". "Mugniyeh is probably the most intelligent, most capable operative we have ever run across, including the KGB or anyone else," he said.
Meanwhile, Israel Radio reported yesterday that three Israeli experts had returned last week from Iran, where they had spent 20 days offering engineering and agricultural advice. The report said the men were employees of an Amsterdam-based Israeli company that has done infrastructure work in Arab Gulf states and their identity was known to Iranian officials.
Two of the men were engineers who were asked for advice on strengthening bridges and roads in the event of earthquakes, to which Iran is prone.
The third was an agricultural expert who had been to Iran in 1998 as an adviser. He was taken to the Bushehr area, the report said, to see the farm area he had helped develop. His hosts reportedly said laughingly there was something else in the area -- "a surprise for you Israelis" -- that they couldn't show him, a clear reference to the nuclear reactor being built at Bushehr.
The Israelis participated in the Passover eve meal with members of the Jewish community in Tehran.
During the regime of the Shah, Israel was very active in Iran commercially and offered extensive rehabilitation assistance after disastrous earthquakes. It is not clear why Israeli experts are now invited to Iran when Mr Ahmadinejad has repeatedly called for Israel's destruction. |
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,18904384-2703,00.html |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:50 am Post subject: |
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any proof for your conspiracy theory?
Of course not. |
I have more proof than the President had about weapons of mass destruction, that's for damn sure. I know many Iranians and they remain people I trust to talk to about these issues. I worked for many years teaching in an Iranian part of Toronto - North York and even though these Iranian immigrants are very suspicious and negative about their own govt/theocracy, they also are very informed and know of how the West has its own agenda.
Please note how all your "proof" is but articles by press that is suspect(especially the Times but even more onious is using the Jerusalem Post!!).. Your sources have holes in them, like Swiss cheese. Disinformation is America's new industry and Taheri is just one more dupe, exile, trying to make a living.
Also, please learn about the geopolitics/history of the region. Or continue to live in the illusion that America had no blame for many thousands of deaths in Iran over many , many years.......(not even mentioning all the Iranians killed by American munitions/armnaments -- Iraqi bought and subsidized by America - let's make a profit on death, U S of A. ).
DD |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| I have more proof than the President had about weapons of mass destruction, that's for damn sure. I know many Iranians and they remain people I trust to talk to about these issues. I worked for many years teaching in an Iranian part of Toronto - North York and even though these Iranian immigrants are very suspicious and negative about their own govt/theocracy, they also are very informed and know of how the West has its own agenda. |
SAddam Hussein did gas his own people. and he wasn't in compliance was he besides he never gave up his own war
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| Please note how all your "proof" is but articles by press that is suspect(especially the Times but even more onious is using the Jerusalem Post!!).. Your sources have holes in them, like Swiss cheese. Disinformation is America's new industry and Taheri is just one more dupe, exile, trying to make a living. |
Yes I bet we ought to use something like Al Manar. ahyway where is the Jeruslem post here.
I bet you believe the words of the supereme leader Ali Khamani
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| Also, please learn about the geopolitics/history of the region. Or continue to live in the illusion that America had no blame for many thousands of deaths in Iran over many , many years.......(not even mentioning all the Iranians killed by American munitions/armnaments -- Iraqi bought and subsidized by America - let's make a profit on death, U S of A. ). |
Khomeni was trying to conquer the gulf. and he attacked the US in Lebanon and in other places.
The US supported one bad guy against another.
Anyway France and Russia and Germany gave much more to Saddam than the US ever did.
Where is your proof for many thousands of deaths?
America media not perfect but a lot better than the media of those fighting it.
Why don't you put your cards on the table. Lets see your sources. So far you got none. Talk about arguments full of wholes like swiss cheese well what you have thrown out is about the equivelent of moldy swiss cheese.
Don't just throw conspiracy theories around without any proof. You can't just expect me to believe you.
By the way here are thousands of deaths but the US didn't do it. Khomeni did it.
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Khomeini fatwa 'led to killing of 30,000 in Iran'
By Christina Lamb, Diplomatic Correspondent
(Filed: 04/02/2001)
CHILDREN as young as 13 were hanged from cranes, six at a time, in a barbaric two-month purge of Iran's prisons on the direct orders of Ayatollah Khomeini, according to a new book by his former deputy.
More than 30,000 political prisoners were executed in the 1988 massacre - a far larger number than previously suspected. Secret documents smuggled out of Iran reveal that, because of the large numbers of necks to be broken, prisoners were loaded onto forklift trucks in groups of six and hanged from cranes in half-hourly intervals.
Gruesome details are contained in the memoirs of Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri, The Memoirs of Grand Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri, one of the founders of the Islamic regime. He was once considered Khomeini's anointed successor, but was deposed for his outspokenness, and is now under house arrest in the holy city of Qom.
Published privately last month after attempts by the regime to suppress it, the revelations have prompted demands from Iranian exiles for those involved to be tried for crimes against humanity. The most damning of the letters and documents published in the book is Khomeini's fatwa decree calling for all Mojahedin (as opponents of the Iranian regime are known) to be killed.
Issued shortly after the end of the Iran-Iraq war in July 1988 and an incursion into western Iran by the Iranian resistance, the fatwa reads: "It is decreed that those who are in prisons throughout the country and remain steadfast in their support for the Monafeqin (Mojahedin) are waging war on God and are condemned to execution."
It goes on to entrust the decision to "death committees" - three-member panels consisting of an Islamic judge, a representative of the Ministry of Intelligence, and a state prosecutor. Prisoners were to be asked if they had changed loyalties and, if not, were to be executed.
Montazeri, who states that 3,800 people had been killed by the end of the first fortnight of executions, includes his own correspondence with Khomeini, saying that the killings would be seen as "a vendetta" and would spark opposition to the regime. He wrote: "The execution of several thousand prisoners in a few days will not have positive repercussions and will not be mistake-free."
The massacres, which came just before the Lockerbie bombing, were seen as a sop to the hardliners at a time when Khomeini was already in failing health and the battle for succession had begun between fundamentalists and moderates. He died the following year.
According to testimony from prison officials - including Kamal Afkhami Ardekani, who formerly worked at Evin prison - recently given to United Nations human rights rapporteurs: "They would line up prisoners in a 14-by-five-metre hall in the central office building and then ask simply one question, 'What is your political affiliation?' Those who said the Mojahedin would be hanged from cranes in position in the car park behind the building."
He went on to describe how, every half an hour from 7.30am to 5pm, 33 people were lifted on three forklift trucks to six cranes, each of which had five or six ropes. He said: "The process went on and on without interruption." In two weeks, 8,000 people were hanged. Similar carnage took place across the country.
Many of those in the ruling council at the time of the 1988 massacre are still in power, including President Mohammed Khatami, who was the Director of Ideological and Cultural Affairs.
"The massacre may have happened 12 years ago, but the relevance is that these atrocities are still happening", said Mohammad Mohaddessin, the chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Iranian National Council of Resistance (NCRI), the main opposition group, who was in London last week to present evidence to MPs.
The NCRI has prepared files on 21 senior members of the regime whom it alleges were "principal protagonists of the massacre", including Mr Khatami and Ayatollah Ali Khameini, Iran's "Supreme Leader". Mr Mohaddessin will travel to New York to present the files to the UN and call for a tribunal to try them for crimes against humanity.
Mr Mohaddessin said human rights abuses were continuing in Iran despite the election of Mr Khatami, who "presents himself as a reformist".
Information appearing on telegraph.co.uk is the copyright of Telegraph Group Limited and must not be reproduced in any medium without licence. For the full copyright statement see Copyright |
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/02/04/wiran04.xml |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:58 am Post subject: |
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JRGR,
Your knowledge is about as deep as the coverage of CNN. Please, without running to the wikipedia or an internet search engine, tell me what SAVAK means or even Dr. Moussadaq. Then we can probably have a discussion.......
As an American apologist you get full marks. You have no grasp of history, a very American trait, the land where one's past can disappear once one gets to the next town.
Oh, I also forgot to mention the first oil magnate of modern times.....financed, paid for (in trillions of dollars) by America, paid to spill the blood of Iranians and make sure a democratically elected govt would not get in the way of "business as usual"....
[url] [/url]
I give Bush full marks though -- he seems particularly unAmerican in that he does have a loooong/deep memory or rather a seemingly childish need to - get even.
As for Mahmood Ahmadinejad, he too is an opportunist, using the Iranian's well intended and historically based fear of the US, Iranian pride to never again be duped, --- for his own political ends. He is a manipulative, simpleton. Always be on guard against these simpletons....
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| By the way here are thousands of deaths but the US didn't do it. Khomeni did it. |
Again, see the above comments. Khomeni was made in America. Direct cause and effect.
DD |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| Your knowledge is about as deep as the coverage of CNN. Please, without running to the wikipedia or an internet search engine, tell me what SAVAK means or even Dr. Moussadaq. Then we can probably have a discussion....... |
Ok the US kept the Russians out
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| During World War II, Iran was invaded by both the British Army and the Soviet army in a brief invasion lasting from August 25-September 17, 1941. The main purpose of the invasion was to secure Iran's oil resources and create a stable supply corridor for both the Soviet Union and the U.K. After taking control of the country the Allies forced the Shah to abdicate in favor of his son, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, whom the Allies hoped would be more supportive of them. In 1953, Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadegh was removed from power in a plot, dubbed "Operation Ajax", orchestrated by British and U.S. intelligence agencies to protect their oil interests |
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| As an American apologist you get full marks. You have no grasp of history, a very American trait, the land where one's past can disappear once one gets to the next town. |
and you are one of those whacko anti US people who support anyone who is against the US.
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| Oh, I also forgot to mention the first oil magnate of modern times.....financed, paid for (in trillions of dollars) by America, paid to spill the blood of Iranians and make sure a democratically elected govt would not get in the way of "business as usual".... |
Shah was nicer than Khomeni.
The US was wrong in Iran but the US was right to fight the cold war.
Besides you are charging the US with everything bad the Shah did.
Ok then I will credit the US for all the good that fighting the cold war did.
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| I give Bush full marks though -- he seems particularly unAmerican in that he does have a loooong/deep memory or rather a seemingly childish need to - get even. |
??
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| As for Mahmood Ahmadinejad, he too is an opportunist, using the Iranian's well intended and historically based fear of the US, Iranian pride to never again be duped, --- for his own political ends. He is a manipulative, simpleton. Always be on guard against these simpletons.... |
He is a fascist just like the supereme leader
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| By the way here are thousands of deaths but the US didn't do it. Khomeni did it. |
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| Again, see the above comments. Khomeni was made in America. Direct cause and effect. |
made in America?
Besides the US support for the Shah no worse than the typical leader in the mideast doesn't justify Irans attacks on the US for 20 years.
It doesn't justify Khomeni's attempt to export his revolution.
It doesn't justify the bigorty and fascism of Khomeni supporters. Or the garbage and disinformation of their apologists either. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:39 am Post subject: ... |
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Saddam gassed his own people with WMD provided by US chemical companies.
I made that clear to you over a year ago (with a Discovery Channel link, if you want to call that biased)
Your response was that that wasn't enough resources to gas those people. You haven't accounted for where such resources came from instead. Nor have you actually accounted for why the US company-supplied resources were inadequate to execute such an attack.
Very simply, you just didn't think so.
At the same time, you cite this decade-earlier evidence as proof that Saddam had WMD in 2003.
Then, you start counting bodies. Your count, including the Beirut bombing, is at something like 300.
How many people did Saddam kill with WMD during the Iran-Iraq war?
The number is certainly not in the hundreds. It's far higher.
It's NOT anti-US to say that. That is the truth.
So, as long as anyone is going to use some kind of scoring system to discern between who's right and wrong, these numbers stand.
And I'm talking to all of you, not just Joo.
You cite Iran's terrorist activity. Cite Western aggression in the ME while you're at it.
I'll leave it at that. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Saddam gassed his own people with WMD provided by US chemical companies. |
with WMD provided by US chemical companies or chemicals provided by US companies?
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I made that clear to you over a year ago (with a Discovery Channel link, if you want to call that biased) |
No thye are fine
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| Your response was that that wasn't enough resources to gas those people. You haven't accounted for where such resources came from instead. Nor have you actually accounted for why the US company-supplied resources were inadequate to execute such an attack |
.
that was not my response.
My response was that such substances were not tightly controlled.
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| Very simply, you just didn't think so. |
that is not what I said.
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| At the same time, you cite this decade-earlier evidence as proof that Saddam had WMD in 2003. |
Saddam's own people thought he had WMDs.
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| Then, you start counting bodies. Your count, including the Beirut bombing, is at something like 300. |
I don' see the point.
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| How many people did Saddam kill with WMD during the Iran-Iraq war? |
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The number is certainly not in the hundreds. It's far higher. |
Ok.
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| It's NOT anti-US to say that. That is the truth. |
Ok.
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So, as long as anyone is going to use some kind of scoring system to discern between who's right and wrong, these numbers stand.
And I'm talking to all of you, not just Joo. |
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| You cite Iran's terrorist activity. Cite Western aggression in the ME while you're at it. |
For instance. Lets take this further.
anyway do you agree with the other poster calling the writer a US agent without any proof whatsoever? And when asked for proof the answer you get that he has more proof that Bush did against Saddam and that all the the media is working is working for the US government.
and an implication that everthing Iran has done over the last 25 years is justified cause the US helped the Shah come to power. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
Again, see the above comments. Khomeni was made in America. Direct cause and effect.
DD |
blah blah blah. gopher's token response to your token statement (america=evil empire) is needed here. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:57 am Post subject: |
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For instance. Lets take this further.
anyway do you agree with the other poster calling the writer a US agent without any proof whatsoever? And when asked for proof the answer you get that he has more proof that Bush did against Saddam and that all the the media is working is working for the US government.
and an implication that everthing Iran has done over the last 25 years is justified cause the US helped the Shah come to power. |
You have put words in my mouth.............NUMBER 1 -- I hate the Ayatollah and don't absolve him or his movement and his followers of anything. He is a terrible scar on the face of Iran -- most Iranians agree but unfortunately like George Bush, the system is stronger than their anger.....
The ayatollah was hounded by U.S. agents, his family killed and also let us be clear , he was elected by a large , majority on the wings of the Iranian revolution. An election monitored by the U.N. and cleared by the international community.
NUMBER 2
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| blah blah blah. gopher's token response to your token statement (america=evil empire) is needed here |
I agree that too many people just attribute ill to America ......without looking at things on a case/ case basis . Still, in the case of Iran , you are dead , dead wrong. I am sorry I have to give you a lesson in American historical medling in Iran. I won't be thorough but briefly........(and also to address the point about more deaths under the Ayattolah, this is hogwash, the Shah is on the hook for far worse, deaths and more importantly, mass pain, terror , torture. ).
The ayatollah was hounded by U.S. agents, his family killed and also let us be clear , he was elected by a large , majority on the wings of the Iranian revolution. An election monitored by the U.N. and cleared by the international community.
Why the link between America and the Ayatollah. Well, his and Iranians pain grew from not as you wrote --- simply America trying to keep the Russians out of Iraq. It happened long after WWII , actually 1953.. It grew from America buying the country and instituting, training, educating and propgating the use of terror, killing and death in Iran. It came from America being directly linked (by declassified documents, all well recorded) with the overthrow of a democratically and loved govt. in Iran. This act and the continued support with arms and terror, was America's birth scream and which gave "life" to the Ayattolah. Please see the article pasted below. I am not one to run and scoop any tripe off the internet to support claims but this briefly outlines the events.
NUMBER 3.
Regarding Iran, one can see how America is getting so much blowback for past wrongs. America more than any country , has meddled and trained and supported and promoted "terror". The SWAK in Iran, so feared and probably even unparelleled in their brutality to even the likes of the KGB under Stalin or the junta in Argentina -- were created by and trained by Americans. Truman was the supporter of this effort, indirectly and it carried on under subsequent administrations. In fact, the Shah was basically partying (amid the screams of his victims) on US. money. Even in his death, he went home to roost in America. (1980 I believe -- another thing that angered Iranians, how America wouldn't turn him in, let him come back for justice -- imagine how America would feel if say, Russia would harbour Bin Laden.....a 1,000 times (in quantitativeness, less a murderer).
So please don't continue with "you are just an anti-American " blabbermouth line......America has done so much good and people around the world see that. But here , in the case of Iran, nonewhatsoever. America can be labeled , "fascist" , solely because the govt is not accountable to the people, the people live unaware of all the ill , their govt does. I don't have to go into a world wide description, others have done this better. America is guilty of propogating a world of war, terror and crisis. Let's be clear about that. Especially in the eyes of Iranians who heard all the screams of the 1,000s killed and tortured by the Nero or Persia....
DD
August 19, 2003
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Today, August 19 [28 Mordad], is the 50th anniversary of the worst day in modern history. On that horrible day, which shall live in infamy for the rest of history, the forces of darkness colluded to destroy Iranian independence, freedom, democracy and constitution.
Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, under the direction of CIA and MI6, and with the help of high-ranking clerics (Ayatollah Kashani, Ayatollah Uzma Brujerdi, Ayatollah Behbahani, and then- Hojatolislam Ruhollah Khomeini), anti-democratic military officers, paid mercenary mob composed of prostitutes and thugs [chaghoo-kesh, arazel o obash] from Shahr-e Nou (Tehran's red light district) attacked their democratic government and replaced it with a brutal tyranny.
Iranians lost their political and economic independence on this day fifty years ago. Their most precious natural resource, which was nationalized and put under Iranian control, was given to a consortium of American and British oil companies.
Iranians lost their freedom on this day fifty years ago. The very first decree Dr. Mossadegh issued when he took office in April 1951 was to the Tehran Police Chief ordering him to stop harassing and harming any journalist or newspaper that criticized his government. Under Dr. Mossadegh, we had full freedom of the press. Papers from diverse ideologies were published freely and they openly criticized the Iran National Front [Jebhe Melli Iran] and Dr. Mossadegh. Some opportunists even took advantage of these freedoms and kept insulting Dr. Mossadegh and other leaders and members of the National Front. The monarchist and Tudeh papers kept viciously attacking, insulting and making false and ugly accusations. Despite all their cruel lies, the wonderful and intelligent people of Iran continued their support of the only government in memory which had bravely protected their interests from attacks from cruel kings and colonial masters.
Iranians lost their democracy on this day fifty years ago. After fifty dreadful years, still the Iranian people can not have free elections in which they, the PEOPLE, can choose their representatives. In the past fifty despotic years, either SAVAK and the royal court [darbar] during the monarchy era has screened and chosen the members of the Majles, or Shoray Negahban during the fundamentalist era has done the same pre-selection.
Iranians lost their constitution on this day fifty years ago. After the coup, Mohammad Reza Shah replaced the rule of law with personal tyranny. Tyranny, although in a collective form, continues today.
Iranians lost their only legitimate and democratic government on this day fifty years ago. The National Front government was the only government that Iran has had which was the result of the free vote of the people. INF members of the Majles were among the very few among Majles deputies who were elected despite the rigging and corruption in elections orchestrated by the royal court [darbar].
Initially, the coup on 25 Mordad failed. The Shah fled to Baghdad, and then to Rome. Col. Nasiri following the CIA-MI6 plan, went to the home of Dr. Mossadegh after mid-night. On the way, he stopped and arrested several INF cabinet members including Dr. Hossein Fatemi. However, Dr. Mossadegh found out about the coup and arrested Nasiri who had arrived to arrest him. Dr. Fatemi and other INF leaders were freed from Nasiri's henchmen.
The people were so happy that they went to the streets and celebrated when they heard of the news the following day.
The Shah fled Iran, but the CIA agents on the ground continued their activities to overthrow Iran's only democratic leader. The CIA had infiltrated the Tudeh Party and used these agents as agents provocateurs to go to the streets and create disturbances including setting places on fire.
Dr. Mossadegh called upon the troops to clear the streets. The CIA had its elements in the armed forces to instead go towards Dr. Mossadegh's home. A three-hour tank battle ensued between the troops defending their only democratic Prime Minister and the troops send by the CIA. Several weeks earlier, the monarchists (Baghaii) had kidnaped, tortured and murdered General Afshartoos, the head of Tehran Police and a loyal supporter of INF and Dr. Mossadegh.
The coup regime arrested, imprisoned and murdered many of the heroes and the best children of their land such as Foreign Minister Dr. Fatemi and journalist Karimpour Shirazi. From August 19, 1953, a hellish nightmare was imposed on the Iranian people and the voices of democrats were brutally suffocated. Kangaroo courts tried pro-democracy leaders. Their hero, Dr. Mossadegh was imprisoned for three years, and then placed under house arrest for the rest of his life, and deprived of contact with pro-democracy activists. The monarchists raped Dr. Fatemi's wife in front of his eyes, then made an assassination attempt while being taken to the kangaroo court, and finally executed the brave democratic Foreign Minister. Karimpour Shirazi was severely tortured and then burned alive in prison to an agonizing death. In the Shah's kangaroo courts, brave INF leaders such as Dr. Ali Shaygan, and Dr. Gholam-Hossein Seddighi put the illegitimate regime of the Shah on the court of public opinion.
The notorious SAVAK was created to imprison, torture and assassinate pro-democracy activists. Thousands upon thousands of Iran's pro-democracy activists were subjected to sever torture under the Shah's brutal savage rule. Torture by monarchists included rape of daughters of political prisoners in front of their eyes: the most infamous case being the rape of the daughter of Ayatollah Mahmoud Taleghani, the respected liberal cleric, a leader in the resistence to the coup regime since August 1953 coup and a member of INF until 1961. The monarchists, like the fundamentalists after them, used rape as a form of torture of female political prisoners. Human rights violations were so severe that Amnesty International declared the Shah's regime as "the worst violator of human rights in 1975."
The coup regime is the main cause for fifty years of misery [bad-bakhti] of the tortured and oppressed nation, that is the Iran. The coup regime so disarticulated Iran's civil society and so terribly suppressed the democratic activists, that Khomeini could deceive the people and present himself as a liberator.
In the past fifty horrific years, brave pro-democracy activists have fought against two brutal regimes. The victims of the 1953 coup, Iranian democrats, are being oppressed and harassed by the current tyrannical regime as they were by the monarchist tyranny.
On this day, the fiftieth anniversary of the death of democracy in Iran, we remember the pro- democracy heroes who have carried the torch of freedom. Their resistance against brutal dictatorships of monarchists and fundamentalists have been inspiration to thousands upon thousands of young men and women who fight for democracy today and will fight for democracy tomorrow. On this day, freedom loving Iranians renew their solemn oath to continue this struggle until they establish the century-long demands of independence, democracy, liberty, rule of law, human rights, modernity, progress, and social justice.
Masoud Kazemzadeh, Ph.D.
Secretary of Foreign Affairs and Human Rights
Organizations of Iran National Front (US Branch) |
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Alias
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:53 am Post subject: |
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| No. Iran has NEVER attacked the US. |
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