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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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 Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| "I think it's more than possible that these guys were totally tweaked out on speed or something when they shot those civilians in Haditha." |
Highly unlikely.
The Marine Corps has no tolerance for drug abuse, and people are administratively separated for alcohol abuse when appropriate.
Otherwise you are repeating speculation and hearsay. Irresponsible. |
Remember the Canadians serving in Afghanistan who were bombed into oblivion by their US fly-boy buddies a few years back?
A handful were instantly murdered, with something like twice as many terribly wounded.
Officially the pilots were cranked up on "GO" pills. Contrary to Gopher's inexplicable chiding, BB is "bang on" when he dares to suggest the military encourages its members to get all "cranked" up & ready to kill.
They're long been working on further developing & improving "DRUGS" which are in fact aimed at helping reduce guilt & feelings of remorse 
Down the "pills", go into action & kill a few families, & thanks to 21st century designer pharmaceuticals, we can all feel a whole lot better.
Just imagine what similar "drugs" the Creater must have been on when humanity was given a conscience.
Tsk, tsk ... |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The Marine Corps has no tolerance for drug abuse, and people are administratively separated for alcohol abuse when appropriate. |
Gopher, I wish I had at hand, statistics that verify the frightening level of "drug abuse" in the military. They exist as do figures supporting the very high level of suicide, wife beating, and abuse of all kinds... I don't think Marines and ESPECIALLY those in combat are any different. You might be right about intolerance of "marijuana", "cocaine" etc.....but this has always been the two faced and hypocritical attitude of the "righteous" military. It is okay to take any amount of prescription drugs, it is okay to drink johnnie walker, shot after shot or down copious amounts of military "low cost" Miller. But yeah, don't smoke a reefer or any other such thing.........
I'm sorry but quit with the righteous, the military is above reproach, Christian and Mormon clean.....jeeeeeeesh.......
I also think the use of drugs by the military to "hype" troops and create a better fighting force is a big dirty secret. Like steroids in baseball. Everyone doing it, nobody talking about it............
Let's be honest, to the grunt on the ground, the task at hand is not "democracy" and "civil deeds". It is about killing, aiming, shooting. To get kids to kill takes a plentiful supply of "laxitives".....This is their goal -- to fire their gun and live to party about it. The military conditions them this way , despite all the public relations blablablabla............. And frightening how they even get them signing up their friends up for a $1,000 bucks. Kind of like the prostitute giving the freebie to the guy who hooks her up with friends............
DD |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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Gopher, once more you should climb out of your hole and into the light of day.....
What the Marines or any branch of the military lists as official policy is not "sanctity". It usually is hyperbole.
There is more than the usual amount of evidence of substantial alcohol abuse, prescription drug abuse and the associated high rates of suicide and spousal violence in the military. Why? Because they are trained that way, it is the culture of deconditioning young men that makes them that way. When people are humiliated , brutalized as part of their "training" , they become these things themselves, they become able to "dominate", do violence in return. IT is almost a primal desire.
Lots of evidence of this, even with your own eyes in Korea. Here is an honest article you could read about Korea.
http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/feb97army.html
Zero tolerance???? Excuse me but numerous official agencies over the years have chastized the military for significantly, under reporting and dealing "inhouse" with its problems of alcholism, spousal abuse, violence.......the military looks after its own, forget your mumbo jumbo about zero tolerance. That is hyperbole as I mentioned. Inside the jig is rotten.
~Less than seven percent of spouse abuse cases are adjudicated by court-marital.-Symposium on DV Prevention Research, Department of Defense, 2002.
~Rates of marital aggression are considerably higher than civilian rates, double, three to five times.-The War At Home, 60 Minutes, January 17, 1999; Heyman and Neidig. (1999). A comparison of spousal agression prevalence rates in U.S. Army and civilian representative samples. Journal of Consulting and Clinicial Psychology, 67 (2), 239-242; Rosen, Brennan, Martin, and Knudson. (August 2002). Intimate Partner Violence and US Army Soldiers in Alaska, Military Medicine; The War At Home, 60 Minutes, September 1, 2002.
~It is apparent that relatively few military personnel are prosecuted or administratively sanctioned on charges stemijng from domestic violence.-Initial Report, Department of Defense Task Force on Domestic Violence, 2001.
And from the CDC ( Center for Disease Control)As shown in this study, even when a multiple-cause analysis is applied to official cause-of-death records, alcohol-related deaths are still grossly underestimated. There are shortcomings in official mortality reporting that are more fundamental than the failure to take into account all listed conditions (10). Among the problems are the apparent omission of diagnostic information available at the time of death or obtained after death.
The frequent omission of excessive blood alcohol levels was a major shortcoming in the death certificates analyzed by CDC. This omission was particularly significant for a population of young U.S. males, because in this population injury is the leading cause of death (11).
The emotional toll that soldiers and their families pay when they are overseas for extended periods can also be high. Fifty-six percent of spouses of extended-duty soldiers are living day-to-day with the fear that their husband or wife will be injured or killed overseas. When asked about the families in their spouse's unit, half report that marital problems are very common; 40 percent cite depression as a very common problem; 27 percent report alcohol or drug abuse problems in the unit; and 16 percent say domestic violence is very common. The military may have to provide much greater support for people living with these issues for long periods of time if it hopes to avoid a possible reenlistment crisis.
To me, nothing average about all these figures. And then we have the pill popping, steroid/juice taking culture within the military......
DD |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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(I'm new to this thread, so maybe I missed someone else mentioning this, if so, excuse me.  )
From that liberal news source, FOX:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C83228%2C00.html
| Quote: |
CENTRAL
FOXNEWS.COM HOME > WORLD > NATIONAL
U.S. Troops Battle Fatigue
Friday, April 04, 2003
SEATTLE, Wash. � As coalition forces fight the Iraqi military, they're also battling another enemy: fatigue.
"Yesterday I finally got a little bit of sleep," said one soldier. "The three days with only three or four hours sleep was pretty rough."
And there's no Starbucks in the middle of the Iraqi desert to provide a java jolt.
The initial ground assault and push toward Baghdad was so fast, allied soldiers went several days with no sleep. And since many have been averaging less than four hours a day, some are worried about a drop in performance.
"It's judgment, situational awareness, ability to anticipate and plan," said Col. Greg Belenky, an Army medical doctor. "These things are sensitive to sleep deprivation."
Belenky, the army's leading sleep scientist, is developing a wrist monitor that logs sleep and can alert a soldier who is getting dangerously drowsy. But right now, it's up to battlefield commanders to manage troops' sleep just as they would other essentials such as food and water.
"It's very difficult to effectively manage because commanders are in a situation where they actually don't know how much people are sleeping, and it's difficult even on the scene to get a good idea," Belenky said.
To combat fatigue, the Army includes caffeine in daily rations, and the Air Force offers pilots Dexedrine, or "go pills."
The pills are basically amphetamines, known on the street as "uppers" or "speed," so the military carefully monitors their use. They're used in the military to stay awake on long combat missions.
But all these countermeasures are only a temporary fix, and the pills may have some bad side-effects.
Two U.S. Air National Guard pilots were charged last fall with involuntary manslaughter in a friendly-fire incident over Kandahar, Afghanistan, on April 17 that resulted in the deaths of four Canadian soldiers and the wounding of eight others. The pilots were given amphetamines -- the "go pills" -- for their mission.
Now they could face 64 years in prison for mistakenly dropping a bomb on the Canadians when they saw weapons fire, although a military hearing officer who was presiding over a hearing in Louisiana in January has recommended against court-martialing the pair.
Col. Patrick Rosenow said that although there was enough evidence to court-martial the two, internal Air Force penalties would maintain "the interests of good order and discipline."
Canada and critics say the two were too quick to open fire under rules of engagement, which some experts say can happen if someone is taking amphetamines.
According to their defense lawyers, the pilots were told by their superiors in Kuwait that they could be found unfit to fly their mission unless they took the pills. Military officials, on the other hand, describe the pills as a "medical tool" that is prescribed only in small, controlled doses.
"This is speed. This is where we got the phrase, speed kills," Robert DuPont, a former White House drug czar, told ABC News in December, when preliminary court proceedings began against the two pilots.
It's because of the need for sleep that experts viewed the sandstorms that slowed the forward push by coalition forces last week as a blessing in disguise -- a rare chance for the soldiers to steal a few extra Zs.
Superior night vision and related technology gives the U.S. military a significant advantage, but also stretches the length of the combat day, requiring troops to perform more complex jobs on less sleep than ever before.
"I don't know of a substitute for sleep, except sleep," said Dr. Carol Landis, a sleep researcher at the University of Washington. "When you haven't had sufficient sleep, what you need is a good night's sleep."
Fox News' Liza Porteus contributed to this report
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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My point is that the military does not really have an anti-drug culture if it is, itself, doling out the drugs.
My brother was in Viet Nam. I know very, very well how much drugs the military used there.
I don't know if the Marines in this case were on drugs- but it would almost be better if they were- they would at least have an excuse.
I have had three siblings in the Marines, including a sister. My brother died as a result of Viet Nam. I don't freely talk sheit about the Marines.
I feel sorry for the Marines and their families- I am willing to bet that they were not the sort of people who would do this sort of thing before the Marines. I know too much about Marine culture to think otherwise. I think it would be really difficult to turn middle American. law-loving boys into murderers.
You. Gopher, are turning into a not very reflective apologist. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
I apologize for nothing, Desultude.
Please keep the discussion on point, however. Distinguish between direct evidence and hearsay, and stop confusing Iraq with Vietnam -- as you know, the geopolitical situation, the regional mission, local conditions and actors (including the language and culture, the religion, and the geography), and the rules of engagement, for example, are not similar.
Also, Vietnam, Nixon, and the draft ended several decades ago, by the way. You seem to still be there. |
No, the U.S. has returned there. I can be accused of a lot of things, but stuck in the past is not one of them.
The maladies of Viet Nam were caused by many of the same things that are being repeated now- troops over-extended, an economic and re-call draft (being called back up after years of not being in the service is a draft!) an enemy that can be anyone anywhere, an administration that is not fully committed to the endeavor, drugs readily available (and being meted out by the military, itself), no good on-the-ground psychologic services (more drugs, anti-depressants, are being doled out) and a war that seems endless and pointless.
Too much (or should I say, enough) is the same- including the home front turning against the war.
I'm not stuck in a time warp- that is a cheap shot and you do know better. The analogy to Viet Nam is not my invention. It is everywhere now, with good reason. It is just that some of us are old enough to make the comparisons.
Also, there are differences- with Viet Nam, the public was treated to the daily spectacle of real conflict footage and the return of filled body bags. The press, slow then on the uptake, at least was allowed to show those things.
As I said, by the way, (but you seemed to miss) is that is might be better of those Marines could claim mental deficiency due to drug use- it would at least make it a little more understandable. If they were clear-headed, it was murder. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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One "miraculous" (but I use that word with hesitation) about Haditha is that FINALLY FINALLY -- America is putting a face to the every day Iraqi suffering ..............
Finally they see human beings behind the numbers. A face, A family, A mother, A son.....Not just their own and blank pictures of destruction.
Why it took the press SOOOOOOOOOOOOO long to do this, is beyond me. 4 years and finally some details about Iraqis killed. I guess if they aren't killed "criminally", personally, they don't count -- they are just in the way.....
But FINALLY faces America can see. This will make a difference and I do think the military knows it faces defeat when the American people finally see the truth, up close personal truth of this war -- how it effects working class people just like them......just like their child.....
Finally America puts on a brave face.
DD
Gopher -- I know understand why you deny............snap out of it, please... |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Gopher wrote:
In any case, why don't you let us know how you know whatever it is you think you know about the U.S. Marine Corps?
And what direct evidence do you offer that these particular Marines were taking drugs and esp. that they were on drugs when they perpetrated Haditha?
If you want me to come along to your way of thinking about this specific accused Marine squad in Haditha, you are going to have to explain to me how you know what you know about their drug use. |
First, let me say I have been speaking to the general situation in the U.S. military. You seem to have not caught on or don't want to address that. Fine. But you yourself even admit that your arguements about what is right and what is wrong are all : geopolitical and situational --- exactly what the military does and why it DOESN"T have a conscience or a leg to stand on. With one mouth speaking of justice and the free world whereas in the heart saying "yeah, do whatever is expedient. Kill, kidnap, bomb, get the job done....". You said,
| Quote: |
And I should like to point out that anyone who extrapolates moral judgment from my posts -- one way or another -- is not reading them right (at least not usually), but rather reading them argumentatively. I try to stick to raw explanations and geopolitical and other practicalities, esp. in foreign affairs.
In this sense, I sometimes suspect that we argue different issues |
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I don't know how it is possible to argue with someone without moral qualms.....or a U.S. military that lacks them also..........
I addressed your point about drug abuse in the U.S. military. There are PLENTY of 60 minute reports, special investigative reports, indept looks on "the addicted military". I quote some stats. So your point below is mute.
| Quote: |
The Marine Corps has no tolerance for drug abuse, and people are administratively separated for alcohol abuse when appropriate.
Systematic drug abuse in the U.S. armed forces is highly unlikely. There is much random testing and there is zero tolerance, at least in the Marine Corps, for servicemembers who test positive -- they are medically or dishonorably discharged rather quickly. |
This is only U.S. armed forces braggadacio, propaganda and meanwhile the core is rotting away. Why? Well I addressed that, you can't do two things at once, expect young kids to kill, treat them like shit and give them a gun, power........The culture is horrible and many military families can attest to that. Also, the military doesn't do anything about those with severe problems. Rather it covers them up,hides them and tries to say, "hey we got all sorts of programs, can't be anything wrong?". Rarely does the military do much unless the person who has the problem is a "problem" -- then they drop them like a bag of wet cement.
| Quote: |
| The problem with that is that I am a former Marine, I am in touch with other former Marines and some active, and I say you are full of it. What you say has no connection with actual conditions in the Marine Corps. |
Fair enough except with the same breath you admit how closeted the military is.
| Quote: |
| Moreover, military bureaucracies are not known for bringing attn to information that shows them in a negative light, particularly not in a fighting war |
I suggest you as part of the Marine culture are very "eyes away". There is a lot that isn't right about the military culture (and sure a lot that is probably good ) and you'd be best to admit it and not continue to deny anything that shows them in a negative light....yourself included.
As to your point about the "situation' at Haditha. NO, i don't know of any evidence pointing to drug use. But then again, the military has all that evidence don't they?????? Then again, they will give whatever only suits their purpose, won't they????? Then again, I do know and have read much about the military culture overseas and bet my bottom dollar, there is a lot of partying going on in the Green Zone while the whole country burns and the Muslims drink their tea and look for their lost ones......
DD |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:58 am Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:23 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:04 am Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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