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Sooke

Joined: 12 Jan 2004 Location: korea
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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Newsweek - Some troops are going on patrol totally stoned
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13126262/site/newsweek /
<snip>
In December, NEWSWEEK interviewed some Army soldiers going home as conscientious objectors. To fight boredom and disgust, said Clif Hicks, who had left a tank squadron at Camp Slayer in Baghdad, soldiers popped Benzhexol, five pills at time. Normally used to treat Parkinson's disease, the drug is a strong hallucinogenic when abused. "People were taking steroids, Valium, hooked on painkillers, drinking. They'd go on raids and patrols totally stoned." Hicks, who volunteered at the age of 17, said, "We're killing the wrong people all the time, and mostly by accident. One guy in my squadron ran over a family with his tank."
Hicks's own revulsion peaked while he was on patrol in January 2004. He came upon a bloody scene in a Baghdad housing project, where some soldiers had mistaken celebratory shots fired at a wedding for an attack, returning heavy fire and killing a young girl. "I looked in the door and she was dead, shot through the neck, Mom there, Grandma there, all losing it. Then I started thinking, this is really f---ed up, this is horribly wrong." Hicks stopped taking his malaria pills, hoping he'd get sick and shipped out. He says that infantry soldiers sometimes stick their legs out of the Humvee under sniper fire, hoping to get a nonlethal wound.
Hicks claims that "there's a lot of guys who steal from the Iraqis. Money, family heirlooms, and then they brag about it. Guys would crap into MRE bags and throw them to old men begging for food."
<snip>
Though no one is talking openly at Camp Pendleton, Marines and their families are buzzing about what might have gone wrong inside Kilo Company. The wife of a staff sergeant in the 3/1 battalion, who declined to be identified because she doesn't want to get her husband in trouble, told NEWSWEEK that there was "a total breakdown" in discipline and morale after Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani took over as battalion commander when the unit returned from Fallujah at the start of 2005. (Chessani's friends in his Colorado hometown defended him as a dedicated, patriotic, religious Marine.) "There were problems in Kilo Company with drugs, alcohol, hazing, you name it," said the woman. "I think it's more than possible that these guys were totally tweaked out on speed or something when they shot those civilians in Haditha."
<snip>
But Lucian Read, a freelance photographer who spent seven months with Kilo Company, both in Fallujah and Haditha, did not see warning signs. "Their morale wasn't bad, it was more fatalistic; this is the grunts-get-screwed-every-time," he said. "They were not happy, not pleased, but not angry, either," Read said. "Nothing they ever did or said even hinted at this kind of event. I never saw it coming. No one saw it coming."
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Interested

Joined: 10 Feb 2003
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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The following is a relevant article from a British Broadsheet
The bloody iceberg's tip
Haditha is in the spotlight. But such an atrocity is unexceptional in occupied Iraq
Sami Ramadani
Wednesday June 7, 2006
The Guardian
The killing of 24 people, including children, inside their homes in the Iraqi town of Haditha is at last receiving widespread media attention in the US and Britain. But it is thanks to coincidence that the story ever came to light.
News of the November 2005 massacre would have been buried alongside many other stories of occupation atrocities had it not been for the presence of mind of an Iraqi journalist, who photographed the horrific scenes before the bodies were buried, and the perseverance of an Iraqi lawyer. For US military crimes to be exposed takes overwhelming evidence, massive perseverance and a good deal of luck. On the other hand, mere speculation from occupation and pro-occupation Iraqi sources is routinely reported as an accurate reflection of events.
Take the report of the killing of three members of the same family in Samarra, which first appeared in Iraq a few weeks back and resurfaced following the publicity around the Haditha massacre. According to the Iraqi news network, US forces killed the three in a raid on the family home: Zaidan Khalaf confirmed that the soldiers had killed his 60-year-old wife Khairiya, son Khalid and daughter Ina'am. I have come across scores of stories in the Iraqi press of unarmed civilians killed by US-led occupation forces, some backed up by video footage. But few make it into the western media. In this context, Haditha is made to seem exceptional, and is always diminished by the obligatory, nauseating ministerial comment that things were worse under Saddam. (Take note Joo!)
Why we should welcome an inquiry led by Donald Rumsfeld's Pentagon is a mystery, given its determination to avoid investigating the involvement of senior officers in the torture and killing of Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib prison. The culture of indiscriminate violence that Iraqis have long insisted permeates the US-led occupation forces is in any case gradually being exposed by the testimony of US soldiers.
One such soldier, Specialist Jody Casey, a scout sniper in Baquba who witnessed civilians being killed by soldiers, said recently bombs "go off and you just zap any farmer that is close to you". Soldiers were told to carry shovels in vehicles so they could plant them on civilian victims, he said, to make it look like they were digging to set up roadside bombs. Specialist Michael Blake, who served in Balad, said it was common practice to "shoot up the landscape or anything that moved" after an explosion.
Meanwhile, we are inundated with stories about Sunnis killing Shias, Shias killing Sunnis, killing Kurds, killing Turkomans, while regular anti-sectarian demonstrations are ignored: 10 days ago, for example, there was a large rally in the predominantly Shia town of Balad in solidarity with the nearby Sunni town of Dhullu'iya, under siege by US forces. The reality is that the occupation is detested by most Iraqis. US-led forces are surrounded by popular hostility, and are operating completely outside Iraqi "sovereign" jurisdiction. No Pentagon courses in the ethics of how and how not to kill Iraqis will change this.
What the occupation forces experience on the ground is a consequence of what their political masters decide in Washington and London. The indiscriminate harming of Iraqis has, in practice, been the modus operandi of US-led policy towards Iraq since 1990. There is a continuity between this bloody occupation and the indiscriminate 13 years of US-led sanctions that preceded it - which also killed thousands of Iraqis.
When will the point come for the media and parliament to declare that the occupation of Iraq is a colossal and unacceptable brutality that must be immediately brought to an end?
� Sami Ramadani was a political exile from Saddam's regime and is a senior lecturer at London Metropolitan University
Email: [email protected] |
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ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| And, specifically, you would be best to admit -- at least in private, to yourself -- that you are too inclined to see things related to the U.S. govt in an extremely negative light, indeed rejecting anything that challenges this worldview in the least. |
I think it is you Gopher who is seriously "shortsighted". You have me pegged all wrong. I am not anti-US. and have much praise for the U.S. people and even many corporations. I believe democracy is the proper road of civility and I believe in competition, a world organized so each individual, high or low has the maximum potential to realize their dreams/desires/contentments.....
What I am Anti is military. Very much so. It is based on my belief in pacifism and that especially war is only destruction, hate, anger and ultimately a false path of pain and self-annihilation.
So yes, I see things where the military is involved, in a very negative and critical light. For justifiably good reasons. American , Chinese, Canadian, Venezuelan, Cuban military -- all get the bottom end of my brain.........
DD
Keep believing in your "military is beyond reproach" philosophy.......keep the hate alive.......
Good posts about the squeaky clean and high saluting military...........Keep on rocking in the Green Zone! |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Compunction Junction
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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Interested posts a link that suggests that the killing of civilians is UNDER reported by American journalists in Iraq. An Iraqi Journalist breaks a story of the killing of civilians. In fact, civilian casualties are virtually UNreported by American news. Yet Iraqi news seems to have dozens of stories.
I fail to see where the surprise is in all of this |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Sooke

Joined: 12 Jan 2004 Location: korea
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Sooke: this story has not yet changed since BigBird posted it on page seven of this thread. |
It's a different article. BB linked to the Guardian. I linked to MSNBC who are quoting Newsweek. Hmm, some of the information is the same, must be gossip.
| Gopher wrote: |
Do you guys think that if you keep hurling the same allegation, from the same source (the unidentified staff sgt.'s wife who probably never left California), but as repeated in different news services, that this will somehow establish the charge as fact? |
One of the people quoted in the article was a soldier there.
| Gopher wrote: |
Apparently so.
What you have amounts to little more than hearsay -- and, apparently, it has now become rapidly-repeated gossip. |
Just like something else, I seem to recall...
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/19208.pdf
16 Mar 2003 Vice President Dick Cheney tells Meet the Press: "Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons. And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
17 Mar 2003 During an address to the nation, President George W Bush declares: "Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."
23 Mar 2003 Kenneth Adelman of the Defense Policy Board declares: "I have no doubt we're going to find big stores of weapons of mass destruction."
24 Mar 2003 Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld tells Face the Nation: "We have seen intelligence over many months that they have chemical and biological weapons, and that they have dispersed them and that they're weaponized and that, in one case at least, the command and control arrangements have been established."
10 Apr 2003 White House spokesman Ari Fleischer declares: "We have high confidence that they have weapons of mass destruction. That is what this war was about and it is about. And we have high confidence it will be found."
and on and on and on.....
http://www.rotten.com/library/history/war/wmd/saddam/
D'oh!!!!
Report concludes no WMD in Iraq
Iraq had no stockpiles of biological, chemical or nuclear weapons before last year's US-led invasion, the chief US weapons inspector has concluded.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3718150.stm
| Gopher wrote: |
And the final paragraph in your post would seem, at least at first glance, to undermine the case you are attempting to support here. Why haven't the Marines' embedded journalists reported on this "pill popping, steroid/juice taking culture..." Do you think that people regularly popping pills, getting high, or abusing steroids are difficult to pick out? Do you think that journalists would not be interested in reporting such a story? (or are they in on the conspiracy, too? ) |
Well, he is an embedded journalist.
embedded: used by US military authorites in 1991 and 2003 to describe the policy of inviting journalists to war. Reporters are absorbed into advancing military units, and may even dress like soldiers. Critics say embedded reporters are psychologically inclined to see themselves as part of the military operation, and are restricted in what they can report, and who they can talk to.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Doublespeak
Fighting Words: An Iraq War Glossary (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0908910.html) defines Embedded reporter as "A journalist traveling with troops and reporting from the battlefield. The 2003 Iraq war was the first time embeds were used. Pros: unprecedented media access to the front. Cons: lack of distance and independence between reporters and their protectors.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Embedded
You were a Marine, were you not? Didn't you see people behaving badly despite rules prohibiting bad behaviour? Just because the military has a 'zero tolerance' policy on bad behaviour (ie: drug abuse, killing civilians, etc.) do you honestly think it doesn't happen?
I remember when I served in the Forces (92-95) we were told one time on ex "Sure you can take prisoners, but remember: they eat before you do." This kind of stuff happens in the military all the time.
As for the 'reporter': as a 'member' of the unit (at least in his mind), do you really think he's going to rat on other members? If he did, I could imagine HIM being the 'victim' of the next roadside IED, if you know what I mean. |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Sooke

Joined: 12 Jan 2004 Location: korea
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Sooke: it is not likely we are going to be able to agree on anything if you are going to wave the weapons of mass destruction/prewar intelligence issue around as if that somehow proves everything you want to allege about the U.S. govt... |
Fair enough..it is a low blow.
| Gopher wrote: |
So, anyway, I'll not even attempt to comment on whatever your point was supposed to have been on how an unattributed source (an unidentified staff sgt.'s wife) somehow establishes everything you want to claim about Haditha... |
Some of the quotes are from a guy who was there:
To fight boredom and disgust, said Clif Hicks, who had left a tank squadron at Camp Slayer in Baghdad, soldiers popped Benzhexol, five pills at time. Normally used to treat Parkinson's disease, the drug is a strong hallucinogenic when abused. "People were taking steroids, Valium, hooked on painkillers, drinking. They'd go on raids and patrols totally stoned." Hicks, who volunteered at the age of 17, said, "We're killing the wrong people all the time, and mostly by accident. One guy in my squadron ran over a family with his tank."
| Gopher wrote: |
| Sooke wrote: |
Didn't you see people behaving badly despite rules prohibiting bad behaviour? Just because the military has a 'zero tolerance' policy on bad behaviour (ie: drug abuse, killing civilians, etc.) do you honestly think it doesn't happen?
I remember when I served in the Forces (92-95) we were told one time on ex "Sure you can take prisoners, but remember: they eat before you do." This kind of stuff happens in the military all the time. |
I saw incidents in the military that did not and do not sit well with me. These were not systematic and indeed the system (UCMJ and non-judicial punishment) came down rather hard on offenders.
But you engage in the most irresponsible of hyperbole here, esp. when you mix "drug abuse" with "killing civilians" as if they were both extremely casual phenomena happening "all the time." They are not; they do not.
I also saw a systematic and very effective effort to identify and weed out drug abusers.
The Marine Corps will provide counseling and treatment to anyone reporting an aclohol problem; but any report or positive test on drug abuse is not tolerated at all. It is indeed "a zero tolerance" policy. Even senior NCOs and commissioned officers are subject to random drug testing. |
It's not just illegal drugs which can "F" you up, legal ones can too. Just saying is all.
| Gopher wrote: |
In my tour as an infantry Marine, I knew one Marine who used steroids. He was also the only one I knew who went UA and never came back (everybody usually comes back, sooner or later). He did not and he was, incidentally, other-than-honorably discharged from the service.
I cannot speak for the Army, and I certainly will not speak on practices in the Canadian military (where, implicitly, based on what you say here, drug abuse and murdering POWs is rather rampant, implicitly encouraged, and generally overlooked), but in the Marine Corps at least, drug abuse is a ticket out, with prejudice.
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Drug abuse isn't rampant, but yes, we were told, OTR, that we'd likely have to kill prisoners if we wanted to eat. Of course, it was made in an easily deniable way, much like (i forget from which article but it's in this thread) the commander who 'jokingly' said : "If you see someone with a cell phone, shoot him."
To paraphrase Chris Rock on OJ: "I don't agree with what they (the Marines) did, but I understand." I'd imagine the Marines and other soldiers don't want to be there-the Iraqis hate them, they can be killed at any time, some are being prescribed legal drugs to help 'stay alert', they don't understand the language or culture...all in all a very stressful situation. Having served in a military, I do not think that soldiers (especially soldiers in such a dire situation as the one they are currently in) killing civilians in a reprisal is a big leap of the imagination.
I remember buddies coming back from Somalia, and the general vibe was that if they (the troops serving in Somalia) had their way, they would've killed all the men they saw. They didn't act on it, for the most part, but a few did, and they got caught, charged and prosecuted. There is no defending what they did, just as there is no defending what the Marines did in Haditha. Likewise, those Marines should be caught, charged, and prosecuted. I don't hate the soldiers, but I do hate the actions they are accused of.
Here is a quote from the same article, which alludes to the sentiment of the guys coming back from Somalia, although in this case it's from Lt. Gen. James Mattis, ex-commander of the First Marine Division:"Actually, it's quite fun to fight them. You know, it's a hell of a hoot ... I like brawling. You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil. You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them."
I guess my point is that I do not believe it out of the realm of possibility that some soldiers are getting stoned, and other soldiers are killing civilians on purpose. I am not saying it is systematic, but it happens, that's for damn sure.
Truth is, more and more soldiers (and civilians) are going to die in Iraq, and more and more soldiers are going to react to the war in a negative manner. It's sad. |
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ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| And the final paragraph in your post would seem, at least at first glance, to undermine the case you are attempting to support here. Why haven't the Marines' embedded journalists reported on this "pill popping, steroid/juice taking culture..." Do you think that people regularly popping pills, getting high, or abusing steroids are difficult to pick out? Do you think that journalists would not be interested in reporting such a story? (or are they in on the conspiracy, too?) |
Gopher, are you on drugs???? Of course embedded journalists don't report these things......my god, are we on the same planet???
As to your accusation that I am wrongly categorizing you as an "apologist" for the military -- yes, you are. Lots of quotes and damn wrong things to back it up. Won't take the time to quote, find. From saying its alright to kidnap and torture to posting items which bring the actions/associations of the civilians killed at Haditha into doubt. You are justifying a mentality in the military which says, "get the job done -- if anything happens really bad, we'll hide and cover your ass..."
I concurr with most of the things Sooke said...especially his final words...so sad...Too bad the wind of truth can't clear away the fog of war.
| Quote: |
I guess my point is that I do not believe it out of the realm of possibility that some soldiers are getting stoned, and other soldiers are killing civilians on purpose. I am not saying it is systematic, but it happens, that's for damn sure.
Truth is, more and more soldiers (and civilians) are going to die in Iraq, and more and more soldiers are going to react to the war in a negative manner. It's sad. |
DD |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:48 am Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Location: Retired
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Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
[What I am Anti is military. Very much so. It is based on my belief in pacifism and that especially war is only destruction, hate, anger and ultimately a false path of pain and self-annihilation.
! |
Riiightttt! So we should have not opposed Hitler in WWII. If we had just been good little pacifists, he would have seen the light
Nor should we have engaged in an arms race with the then Soviet Union.
We should have unilaterally disarmed and then they would have followed suit
In fact every time when faced with a tyrant (starting with King George) the Americans should have just rolled over and played dead.
So should have every other Western nation when facing tyrants/dictators.
Like it or not, there are times when war is justified. As for Iraq I'm pretty sure the Kurds agree. |
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ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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Riiightttt! So we should have not opposed Hitler in WWII. If we had just been good little pacifists, he would have seen the light
Nor should we have engaged in an arms race with the then Soviet Union.
We should have unilaterally disarmed and then they would have followed suit
In fact every time when faced with a tyrant (starting with King George) the Americans should have just rolled over and played dead.
So should have every other Western nation when facing tyrants/dictators.
Like it or not, there are times when war is justified. As for Iraq I'm pretty sure the Kurds agree. |
Please don't get me started.....being both German and a Jew (family forced to become Christian) and having lost family in the war, I do have some perspective.
War as Nowhereman stated is a LAST and defensive option. Not the case in so many of the wars I see. To replace a tyrant with more tyranny is not right.
I agree, we have a loooooooooong history of militancy, weapons production and trading. You can't just drop your guard over night BUT I DO not like any country where the military has so much power and there is no compensating thrust towards diplomacy and especially creating a more peaceful, understanding world.
Further, war as the Geneva convention rightly states -- is a means of defense. The Kurds themselves have a right (but I disagree with their use of armed insurrection) to oppose tyranny and subjugation. I agree with that despite my pacifism and won't condemn a man who lifts his arm when others come knocking at his door. BUT it is the wholesale, mechanical, hygenic and fearmongering military that I am against. One not born of a natural right but out of business and out of a need to conquer, control, occupy.
Yes, Hitler should have been confronted. Hussein wasn't any Hitler at all..............so your point is without merit. Quite simple.
DD |
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supernick
Joined: 24 Jan 2003 Location: Seoul
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Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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TUM wrote:
| Quote: |
| Like it or not, there are times when war is justified. As for Iraq I'm pretty sure the Kurds agree. |
Yeah, right.
There are some who will try to justify the war by making such false assertions. The war was clearly not justified, and by you referring to the Kurds is just another person using the Kurds as a pawn.
The Kurds have never been treated very well and the almost 30 million of them may one day have their own region. Until then, they are still mistreated in Turkey ( a key U.S. ally), but the war pushers never like to be reminded about that. 80 odd years ago the British gassed them as they thought that they were resistant to the British puppet government. Basically, they were destined to be wiped out of Iraq.
After 1991, the Kurds had a more or less an autonomous region in N.Iraq and was protected by no-fly zones. How are the Kurds better protected now than before? What about in the future?
The war was never over the plight of the Kurds or bringing freedom to the people of Iraq. Remember, it was because of Saddam, WMD and the "gathering threat".
| Quote: |
| Riiightttt! So we should have not opposed Hitler in WWII. If we had just been good little pacifists, he would have seen the light |
And how should we be reminded of pacifists who decide not to confront the threat. WWII the threat was very real and who were the pacifists?
Please TUM, don't try to tell us that the war was justified because of the Kurds or any other imagined benefits. Don't try to tell us that the rest of the world are pacifist when in fact when there has been a real threat, some dealt with the situation head on. |
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