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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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 Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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OK you're "sounding" a bit more reasonable than before...
| BJWD wrote: |
The problem is Islam. Lets just accept that, and find a solution that keeps us safe and free (such as keeping them away from us). |
But, you're just repeating the same point and (IMO) making the same mistake..
| BJWD wrote: |
| if there were Christian Wackos from America entering Canada/Europe and elsewhere and trying to kill abortion doctors, I think that a solid majority on the Left and in the Center of mainstream politics would find it a sensible idea to limit the number of Christians from America from entering in the first place. Why can't we apply that logic here? |
You can't apply that "logic" because you are making a simplistic equation
christian (=wacko=obgyn doctor killer)=terrorist. ALL OF THEM.
It's simplistic and you end up demonising and damning one third of the world's population, because, among them, there are some f*cking idiots.
I wish I knew enough about Islam and the Islamic world to be able to say that not all muslims are homophobes, misogynist, supremacists. I don't have the knowledge to refute you, but I think I know the logic that you're using to come to the conclusion you do.
You hear the sensational (inherently bad) aspects of some Islamic practices - chopping off of hands in Iraq (?), clitorial circumcison in Somalia, homosexuals being stoned in Saudi. It's what makes news news right?? Exotic, shocking, compelling. You're justifiably disgusted by this, and start adding 'Islamic country' and 'intolerant *rseholes' together.
But it's probably safe to assume that it's more involved than that, isn't it?
Again I don't know what life in an Islamic country is like, but I can compare it to another country that I don't have first hand experience of..
In America - I've heard of;
Serial killers eating people
Teenage mothers leaving babies in public toilets
Paedophile rings that kidnap children
Incestuous familes
Right Wing armies waging war on minorities, gays etc
Disgusting right? Despicable, intolerant behaviour. Does this mean that the rest of the American population are irredeemably "homophobic, supremacists, misogynistic "?
Just think about it.... |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:30 am Post subject: |
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Alright,
| Quote: |
You can't apply that "logic" because you are making a simplistic equation
christian (=wacko=obgyn doctor killer)=terrorist. ALL OF THEM. |
Read my post again. Where in it did I mention terrorists (except to say that I DON'T THINK THAT ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS).
But I was careful with my words.
I said "those who actually follow Islam" and "practicing Muslims". Islam is a homophobic (to put it lightly), misogynistic (how are women doing in the "Muslim world" these days?) and supremacist (theirs is the final religion. All before it are incomplete and must be replaced). If an individual is a Muslim in the sense that I'm a Catholic (family, not actual faith) then I have little problem with them entering Canada (provided, of course, that they can demonstrate that beyond a shadow of a doubt. And how they would do that, admittedly, is a problem.)
My point wasn't that they are all terrorist. My point was that those who actually follow the faith, as set out in the Koran and Islamic tradition are misogynistic, homophobic and supremacists.
I don't see how, if you share my desire to have a truly tolerant and liberal nation, allowing in observant Muslims can possibly help.
I'm not even that concerned about terrorism. There has always and will always be terrorism (and while not all Muslims are terrorists, the vast majority of terrorists are Muslims). Our culture can withstand terrorism. We can recover from much more than any cave-dwelling, knuckle dragging Islamist can ever throw at us.
My concern relates to the concessions that will have to be made to accommodate them, and their legislative power should their numbers (now at 650,000 in Canada) become significant. This IS reasonable. It is also highly logical and consistent.
BWT, I don't care if I come across as reasonable to you. This is a message board. I think I'll be ok. I don't mean to be a jerk when saying that either. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:46 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| You hear the sensational (inherently bad) aspects of some Islamic practices - chopping off of hands in Iraq (?), clitorial circumcison in Somalia, homosexuals being stoned in Saudi. It's what makes news news right?? Exotic, shocking, compelling. You're justifiably disgusted by this, and start adding 'Islamic country' and 'intolerant *rseholes' together. |
Those are the most extreme examples but they are largely representative of social mores in the Islamic world. In most Islamic countries homosexuality is a crime, in many punishable by death. Most Islamic clerics agree that homosexuals should be killed, although there is some disagreement about how they should be murdered. The moderates tend to advocate stoning, while more conservative clerics are in favour of throwing them off mountains. Islam is quite a broad church as you can see.
| Quote: |
| But it's probably safe to assume that it's more involved than that, isn't it? |
I think the assumption that Islam is virulently homophobic, misogynistic and intolerant is a clearly identifiable trend observable in most Muslim countries. Generally, people get the states they deserve. Dutch people are mostly easy, tolerant, socially concerned, liberal people. Their state and the way their society is organised reflects this. The way Muslim societies are organised, and what is deemed acceptable and unacceptable reflects the social mores of that culture. Even in non-Shariah states, it is very difficult, and often life threatening to convert to another religion, and life for religious minorities is often one of state sanctioned persecution.
| Quote: |
Serial killers eating people
Teenage mothers leaving babies in public toilets
Paedophile rings that kidnap children
Incestuous familes
Right Wing armies waging war on minorities, gays etc |
We are moving into moral equivalence again. These are examples of repulsive and highly unusual behaviour that is not condoned by anyone outside the most disturbed crackpots. This is in stark contrast to the examples given in regard to Islam where homophobia (and I mean the kind that will end in murder) religious intolerance and misogyny are accepted cultural norms that are often backed up by legal frameworks and societal approval. Paedophile rings and incestuous families occur in Islamic societies also. However, in Islamic societies sexual crimes will often result in the 'honour killing' (also known as murder) of the female victim. Nice.
You are comparing extreme, highly unusual behaviour that is rejected by mainstream society to fairly common behaviour which is condoned at the highest levels. Just think about it.... |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
Alright,
| Quote: |
You can't apply that "logic" because you are making a simplistic equation
christian (=wacko=obgyn doctor killer)=terrorist. ALL OF THEM. |
Read my post again. Where in it did I mention terrorists (except to say that I DON'T THINK THAT ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS). . |
I meant that by killing doctors they were comitting terrorism and that they could be called terrorists, is all, wasnt' trying to put words in your mouth.
I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but all I was trying to say was that, without specific knowledge of the nature and history of modern Islamic practice - I reach my conclusions by extrapolating from what I do know.
There are intolerant wack jobs in west - and if we tried hard enough we could probably come up with an umbrella big enough to categorise them as "Christian". They are probably the pains they are, because they are fundamentalists. I know these idiots exist, I know they are counter productive to the kind of society I would like to live in. I know that the rest of the population are OK and generally nice people. I don't want to associate the bad things I've heard with people whose only association with them is that they are of the same religion. I can see that we agree here, you've said that the problem is not all muslims just the "practicing muslims", which I assume is like saying the fundamentalist freaks are the problem.
You've got a point. I don't want the Arayan brotherhood living next door to me, anymore than I do an islamic terrorist cell. I would hope that immigration do their job and weed out the intolerant and violent of any creed. If they happen to be "practicing muslims", or fundamentalist Christian gun nuts they can both be legitimately excluded if they use violence to further their causes.
So we can agree on that. Who wouldn't?
I think the real issue is your fear of people with darker complexions, who won't play ice hockey with you. What concessions are these that Canada are going to have to make? What effect will this minority have on your way of life? Would it be better or worse than any other minority group?
I think i react more to the rabid frothing at the mouth evident when you have to describe a muslim. It's much to pure a loathing not to have fear associated with it, and to provoke mistrust in your logic. |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
You are comparing extreme, highly unusual behaviour that is rejected by mainstream society to fairly common behaviour which is condoned at the highest levels. Just think about it.... |
Fair enough Verne... If this is true ( and a quick google says there is a level of institutionalisation) then there are some large pools of darkness out there that are cause for concern. Still there are progressives in the Islamic world - I'd rather hold out hope that there are functioning humans there, rather than believe that they are ALL succumbing to baser instincts. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Still there are progressives in the Islamic world - I'd rather hold out hope that there are functioning humans there, rather than believe that they are ALL succumbing to baser instincts. |
There are progressives out there. However, they are in the minority. If they were in the majority their societies would be progressive and moderate, but they are not. It makes little sense, therefore, to allow into your country hundreds of thousands of people whose views are in direct opposition to so many of the Western liberal values you hold dear.
| Quote: |
| I would hope that immigration do their job and weed out the intolerant and violent of any creed. If they happen to be "practicing muslims" |
It is impossible to differentiate the 'moderate' from the 'immoderate' Muslim in terms of immigration procedure. Define 'moderate Muslim'.
| Quote: |
| I think the real issue is your fear of people with darker complexions |
I am surprised it took so long for the insinuation of racism to rear its ugly head. A rather pathetic debating tactic, so often used in the absence of substance. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:53 am Post subject: ... |
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Those are the most extreme examples but they are largely representative of social mores in the Islamic world. In most Islamic countries homosexuality is a crime, in many punishable by death. Most Islamic clerics agree that homosexuals should be killed, although there is some disagreement about how they should be murdered. The moderates tend to advocate stoning, while more conservative clerics are in favour of throwing them off mountains. Islam is quite a broad church as you can see.
And here is your full-on excrement.
Do provide a link showing "most islamic clerics agree that homosexuals should be killed" and DO tie in the reputable statistics for your subsequent SILLY assertion about execution methods.
And let's be clear. I'm not asking you to cite the Koran. I'm asking you to provide statistics that show "most Islamic clerics agree that homosexuals should be killed".
Who conducted this study?
Where and when?
And I don't expect a single whacko goofy source. |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| Big Verne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I think the real issue is your fear of people with darker complexions |
I am surprised it took so long for the insinuation of racism to rear its ugly head. A rather pathetic debating tactic, so often used in the absence of substance. |
Uncalled for. I think the case cited (not Big V's) IS an example of racism, and any reasonable person can see by reading the post that I adress the issues with an argument.
Overall Big V you're just willing to condemn EVERYBODY who is a muslim -I'm prepared to make a case by case judgement. We agree there are muslims who aren't necessarily full of hate and willing to kill. Just as there are Christians, Jews and... well Buddhists seem to pretty cool really.
So why do you want to lump the secular, rational, normal human being getting on with their lives with the (admittedly potentially a majority) intolerant fundamentalist freaks??
Last edited by happeningthang on Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:10 am Post subject: |
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Do provide a link showing "most islamic clerics agree that homosexuals should be killed" and DO tie in the reputable statistics for your subsequent SILLY assertion about execution methods.
If I stated 'most Christians believe in Jesus' would you ask me to provide evidence?
Most Muslim clerics, in the Islamic world, support Shariah Law, just as most Christian clerics believe that Jesus was resurrected. I have no actual 'evidence' to support these claims, but they are such instrinsic parts of both religions that it is a reasonable assumption to make.
Under Shariah Law, homosexuality is punishable by death. The comment about 'being thrown off mountains' was a tongue in cheek comment about actual comments made by a Muslim cleric (see 'Bearded Man with Turban' thread).
Even if you do not accept my assertion that most clerics support the death penalty for homosexuals, homosexuality is a crime in almost all Muslim nations, and in many it is punishable by death. Do you think such measures are approved by the public at large, and what does this say about the cultural values of people in those societies?
Guess what, your pet Muslims do not share your liberal agenda. In fact, they hate you for it, which is something you are too far gone to see. But continue with your self-delusion. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| So why do you want to lump the secular, rational, normal human being getting on with their lives with the (admittedly potentially a majority) intolerant fundamentalist freaks?? |
Because, in terms of immigration policy, it is impossible to seperate the minority of secular, rationalists with the larger conservative, intolerant majority.
| Quote: |
| We agree there are muslims who aren't necessarily full of hate and willing to kill. |
You are getting confused. I don't think that the majority of Muslims are full of hate and want to kill. Only a minority in engage in that kind of extremism. My problem is with a majority of Muslims whose cultural values are massively different from our own and who cannot be integrated into Western society, just as we could not integrate into theirs. Such large scale immigration from such a vastly different culture will not benefit the host nation, and will cause very serious problems further down the line, including Jihadist activity. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:46 am Post subject: ... |
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For the record, I once asked you if the majority of Muslims wanted to "see the West die".
Your response was, "In a word, 'Yes'".
I lost track of that thread and you went on in many more threads to dismiss me for strawman reasons. I couldn't find it again.
But this is back to where we were.
Let's indulge logic:
| Quote: |
| Most Muslims think that homosexuals should be murdered. |
This is an unprovable, BS generalization.
You then, in your deft command of logic, try to prove this by stating that "most Christians believe in Christ".
As if some parity exists between believing in the existence of the prophet of a said religion and a religious precept.
They are not comparable.
Moreover, I invite you to find some of the Christians who don't believe in Christ. 
Most Muslim clerics accept Shariah Law as Christian clerics accept the resurrection?
That's another lode of BS.
Were you to try being logical, Muslim clerics might accept Mohammed's ascension as they would Christ's resurrection.
That would make sense. Your assertion doesn't.
In terms of Shariah law, you might compare it to the 10 commandments.
On the other hand, there are places where Shariah law is not observed by local Muslims. Rather, they consider implementing it.
As such, Shariah is more like Leviticus in the Bible.
The absence of Shariah doesn't prevent Muslims from worshipping.
That brings us back to homosexuals, sacrifice, and other old-school punishment.
Christianity doesn't approve of homosexuality.
Islam doesn't approve of homosexuality.
BigV, that's parity.
Do Christian clerics want to kill homosexuals?
Do Muslim cleric want to kill homosexuals?
Some do. Others DON'T. Maybe more in Islam, but, as I've said before, you can't stereotype a religion of millions.
I suppose you can, but you don't come back with "I have no statistics" to prove a point.
You know no Muslims but know all about them?
It's all big, weak and floppy. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| happeningthang wrote: |
| BJWD wrote: |
Alright,
| Quote: |
You can't apply that "logic" because you are making a simplistic equation
christian (=wacko=obgyn doctor killer)=terrorist. ALL OF THEM. |
Read my post again. Where in it did I mention terrorists (except to say that I DON'T THINK THAT ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS). . |
I meant that by killing doctors they were comitting terrorism and that they could be called terrorists, is all, wasnt' trying to put words in your mouth.
I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but all I was trying to say was that, without specific knowledge of the nature and history of modern Islamic practice - I reach my conclusions by extrapolating from what I do know.
There are intolerant wack jobs in west - and if we tried hard enough we could probably come up with an umbrella big enough to categorise them as "Christian". They are probably the pains they are, because they are fundamentalists. I know these idiots exist, I know they are counter productive to the kind of society I would like to live in. I know that the rest of the population are OK and generally nice people. I don't want to associate the bad things I've heard with people whose only association with them is that they are of the same religion. I can see that we agree here, you've said that the problem is not all muslims just the "practicing muslims", which I assume is like saying the fundamentalist freaks are the problem.
You've got a point. I don't want the Arayan brotherhood living next door to me, anymore than I do an islamic terrorist cell. I would hope that immigration do their job and weed out the intolerant and violent of any creed. If they happen to be "practicing muslims", or fundamentalist Christian gun nuts they can both be legitimately excluded if they use violence to further their causes.
So we can agree on that. Who wouldn't?
I think the real issue is your fear of people with darker complexions, who won't play ice hockey with you. What concessions are these that Canada are going to have to make? What effect will this minority have on your way of life? Would it be better or worse than any other minority group?
I think i react more to the rabid frothing at the mouth evident when you have to describe a muslim. It's much to pure a loathing not to have fear associated with it, and to provoke mistrust in your logic. |
That was a great reply, until you slandered me. Fine.
BTW, the woman sitting next to me, right now, who I live with (in sin) has a darker complexion than me.
Muslims can be caucasian. Whiter than my arse in the winter.
As$hole. |
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ChimpumCallao
Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: your mom
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| BTW, the woman sitting next to me, right now, who I live with (in sin) has a darker complexion than me. |
HOLLAH! |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| happeningthang wrote: |
| BJWD wrote: |
Alright,
| Quote: |
You can't apply that "logic" because you are making a simplistic equation
christian (=wacko=obgyn doctor killer)=terrorist. ALL OF THEM. |
Read my post again. Where in it did I mention terrorists (except to say that I DON'T THINK THAT ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS). . |
I think the real issue is your fear of people with darker complexions, who won't play ice hockey with you. What concessions are these that Canada are going to have to make? What effect will this minority have on your way of life? Would it be better or worse than any other minority group?
I think i react more to the rabid frothing at the mouth evident when you have to describe a muslim. It's much to pure a loathing not to have fear associated with it, and to provoke mistrust in your logic. |
That was a great reply, until you slandered me. Fine.
BTW, the woman sitting next to me, right now, who I live with (in sin) has a darker complexion than me.
Muslims can be caucasian. Whiter than my arse in the winter.
As$hole. |
That's fair enough BJWD. I don't think that you hate anyone not the same color as you.
I think you have a hatred of muslims living in your country. It's not racism, but it's something like it. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Most Muslims think that homosexuals should be murdered. |
It becomes very tiresome debating with someone who constantly misquotes and misrespresents what you say. I never said that, I quite clearly stated that "Most Islamic clerics agree that homosexuals should be killed".
| Quote: |
| This is an unprovable, BS generalization. |
Probably unprovable, as are many things, but I think it is a fair assumption based on;
1. The clear penalties for homosexuality as laid down by Shariah Law.
2. The centrality of Shariah Law in Islam, and especially to those people who would take their religion seriously enough to become an Imam.
| Quote: |
| Most Muslim clerics accept Shariah Law as Christian clerics accept the resurrection? |
I would say almost all Christian clerics accept the resurrection, and that most Muslim clerics accept Shariah Law. I have no evidence for either assumption, but I still maintain they are fair assumptions.
| Quote: |
| On the other hand, there are places where Shariah law is not observed by local Muslims |
But we are not talking about observance but whether Islamic clerics believe in Shariah Law.
| Quote: |
| Shariah is more like Leviticus in the Bible. |
It's not. Shariah is a clear legal framework that is still relevant to Muslims today, is advocated by a myriad of Muslim organisations and supported by most Muslim clerics. It is a blueprint for organising a Muslim state. It is nothing like Leviticus.
| Quote: |
Christianity doesn't approve of homosexuality.
Islam doesn't approve of homosexuality.
BigV, that's parity. |
How many Christian clerics advocate killing homosexuals, and how many Christian majority nations have the kind of punishments that exist in Muslim nations?
Get back to me on that before you suffocate in your own relativism.
| Quote: |
| as I've said before, you can't stereotype a religion of millions. |
No, but you can make make observations about the social mores and values in Muslim nations, and recognise that they are largely incompatible with our own. Or you could regurgitate meaningless platitudes that serve only to satisfy your own liberal dogma.
I state again. Muslims (for the most part) despise people like you, and everything you stand for. When will you understand that? |
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