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PaperTiger
Joined: 31 May 2005
Location: Ulaanbataar
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 Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:06 am Post subject: A brief lesson in immigration law... |
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I had to go to the dread Mokdong Immigration Office today because I'd lapsed on my F-2 renewal. Thinking this is the first time I'd had such an infraction, they would probably just update my information and wave me through. No chance...apparently if your boss keeps you past the date on your exit papers for whatever reason, you and only you are responsible for any penalties that may follow as a result. I went on to explain that I could not leave because my boss had not bought the tickets and would not allow me to leave, and that I had broached the topic a number of times knowing that someone would most likely relish giving me the maximum fine for overstaying my visa.
I had to pay nearly 300,000 Won in fines and spend almost seven hours (one hour was for the office lunch where the whole place shuts down and everyone is in limbo). I tried to explain my situation, but since the penalties officer cannot understand what I'm saying and doesn't care what my wife tells him. As an added bonus, he discussed my situation with his colleague sitting beside him and referred to me in several pejorative Korean terms. The end result is the same: fine the foreigner the maximum penalty, everyone knows Americans have tons of money.
Lesson? Make no assumptions when you boss tells you to do something illegal, regardless of your status and WHEN the infraction occurred or whether you're even aware you violated the law, YOU and ONLY YOu will have to pay the fine. Korean people break the law all day every day and no one bats an eye, but if we do it, we don't have the option of bribing, crying, or whining our way out of it like Koreans do.
Prologue: I don't think I've ever seen my wife so P.O.'d as when I told her how the Penalties officer spoke to me. She called him and reamed him for a steady 10 minutes, of course he denied everything and refused to apologize. My wife, she rocks. |
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kprrok
Joined: 06 Apr 2004
Location: KC
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:20 am Post subject: |
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I'm sorry, perhaps I'm missing something or you made a typo. BUT...what does your boss have to do with you missing your F2 renewal?
Everything else...duh! Never trust someone who tells you to do something illegal. And if you think you might get pushed over the edge, take it upon yourself to buy your tickets so YOU don't get busted. Why would you expect him to do it? His butt wouldn't be held to the fire.
KPRROK |
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PaperTiger
Joined: 31 May 2005
Location: Ulaanbataar
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:41 am Post subject: |
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| kprrok wrote: |
I'm sorry, perhaps I'm missing something or you made a typo. BUT...what does your boss have to do with you missing your F2 renewal?
Everything else...duh! Never trust someone who tells you to do something illegal. And if you think you might get pushed over the edge, take it upon yourself to buy your tickets so YOU don't get busted. Why would you expect him to do it? His butt wouldn't be held to the fire.
KPRROK |
Oh where oh where were you and your sublime wisdome three years ago when I didn't know better? While I'm happy to supply you with your apparent onanistic pleasure at finding typos, I suggest you apply yourself more to comprehension in the area of reading.
In most cases, the employer undertakes the cost of the plane ticket to Osaka and the subsequent cost of the visa, as I'm sure you know. Since I was new and had no reason to disbelieve them, I waited impatiently with exit order in hand to notify me as to when I should depart. If I departed sooner I would be fired for abandoning my duties, althought at the time I was working illlegally. Being a noob, I didn't know I would be held accountable later or that the usually disoorganized and incomptetant Immigration stooges would know of and document my first offense.
The connection here, is that a first infraction is pardoned, whereas a second one is not. I was under the mistaken impression that this was my first infraction, and since I was under the sponsorship of my employer that it was obvious that THEY controlled my situation and were therefore responsible for my visa status. In any case, you appear as sympathetic as an Immigration Officer so addressing you not worth the effort.
A word to the wise, or inexperienced is what this is...I hope this will help someone. Immigration law only becomes crystal clear after the fines are levied and then promptly change before the next occasion to visit that pit of vipers arises. Can't be too carefull. |
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PaperTiger
Joined: 31 May 2005
Location: Ulaanbataar
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| I've spelled disorganized with two o's...I imagine kprrok has a smug reply and his personal lubricant ready for his next salvo. O' calamity, thy name is troll! |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Never trust someone who tells you to do something illegal. |
It's so obvious you'd think people wouldn't need to be told, but in fact they do. Repeatedly. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| PaperTiger wrote: |
| The connection here, is that a first infraction is pardoned, whereas a second one is not. I was under the mistaken impression that this was my first infraction, and since I was under the sponsorship of my employer that it was obvious that THEY controlled my situation and were therefore responsible for my visa status. In any case, you appear as sympathetic as an Immigration Officer so addressing you not worth the effort. |
I don't get it either. If you are on an F2 THEY do not control your situation. That is the power of the F2. It is your (and your wife's) responsibility.
I'm surprised to read that you are blaming others. The F2 is a process you can do in country. You don't have to exit, you just have to go down there with your wife.
If you missed the date, it is your responsibility.
Hogwon owners have a lot to answer for, but this is not one of them. |
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PaperTiger
Joined: 31 May 2005
Location: Ulaanbataar
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:58 am Post subject: |
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I'm not sure why I have to spell this out. The second time is my fault, however, I was unaware of the docuementation of the first offense, and if I had been able to convince them that the first instance was indeed not my fault the fine would have been much smaller and therefore less of a blow. I'm aware the F-2 is my responsibility, I guess I expected too much to expect someone at Immigration or even other expats to understand why I didn't want to pay a fine for something I had no choice in.
It's a simple issue of present and past. The first instance happened back in 2003 when I didn't know better and wasn't a result of my actions or wishes. I didn't have a choice. I didn't break the law because I wanted to or because I couldn't bloody well afford to just jump on the next plane to Japan, you twits. Are we teaching the same language in the same country?
I guess I should have remembered that Dave's Peanut Gallery is most definately and primarily the province of smug, unsympathetic cretins. I suggest you return to your post under a bridge where you copulate with anyone and everyone you share seven alleles with. Cremouille d'une grognaisse, manger des etrons. |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:00 am Post subject: |
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CC,
I was thinking the same thing. I'm on an F-2 as well and know when mine expires. Although I've not gotten to the point of renewing it yet, I realize that I'm going to have to go in at least a few weeks before and get the paperwork started.
I'm wondering if he's got some other reason why he has to do it that way. |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:04 am Post subject: |
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| PaperTiger wrote: |
I'm not sure why I have to spell this out. The second time is my fault, however, I was unaware of the docuementation of the first offense, and if I had been able to convince them that the first instance was indeed not my fault the fine would have been much smaller and therefore less of a blow. I'm aware the F-2 is my responsibility, I guess I expected too much to expect someone at Immigration or even other expats to understand why I didn't want to pay a fine for something I had no choice in.
It's a simple issue of present and past. The first instance happened back in 2003 when I didn't know better and wasn't a result of my actions or wishes. I didn't have a choice. I didn't break the law because I wanted to or because I couldn't bloody well afford to just jump on the next plane to Japan, you twits. Are we teaching the same language in the same country?
I guess I should have remembered that Dave's Peanut Gallery is most definately and primarily the province of smug, unsympathetic cretins. I suggest you return to your post under a bridge where you copulate with anyone and everyone you share seven alleles with. Cremouille d'une grognaisse, manger des etrons. |
Yes, people on this board can be harsh. I told someone to take a long walk off a short pier the other day because of a stupid comment they made. It wasn't the best choice of words. To top though I told someone to f-off in the same thread.
What is not clear is what happened the first time. Were you on an E-2 or F-2 visa? It is interesting to know though that the first time they let you go. I had no idea they even would do that much. Just looking for clarification. |
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KumaraKitty
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Location: Bucheon
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:17 am Post subject: |
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| I'm confused as well. I thought under an F-2 you didn't need to leave the country to renew? Was I wrong? My BF and I are discussing marriage and the major benefit we are looking at(besides the obvious joy of spending our lives together!) is me getting the F-2 and being free from the petty politics of the Hagwon. I guess I need to do more research! |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:19 am Post subject: |
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| PaperTiger wrote: |
I'm not sure why I have to spell this out. The second time is my fault, however, I was unaware of the docuementation of the first offense, and if I had been able to convince them that the first instance was indeed not my fault the fine would have been much smaller and therefore less of a blow. I'm aware the F-2 is my responsibility, I guess I expected too much to expect someone at Immigration or even other (1)expats to understand why I didn't want to pay a fine for something I had no choice in.
It's a simple issue of present and past. (2)The first instance happened back in 2003 when I didn't know better and wasn't a result of my actions or wishes. (3) I didn't have a choice. I didn't break the law because I wanted to or because I couldn't bloody well afford to just jump on the next plane to Japan, you twits. Are we teaching the same language in the same country?
I guess I should have remembered that (4)Dave's Peanut Gallery is most definately and primarily the province of smug, unsympathetic cretins. I suggest you return to your post under a bridge where you copulate with anyone and everyone you share seven alleles with. (5)Cremouille d'une grognaisse, manger des etrons. |
Numbers are mine:
1-You always have a choice. How old are you? Seriously, accept some responsibility.
2-Your first post was unclear as to the order of events. You may want to re-read it from a fresh perspective to find out why others are confused.
3-See #1
4-Just because people do not aggree with you, you call them names?? Seriously, you posted something on here and people asked questions and dissagreed with you. Grow up and drop the name calling.
5-I have no idea what you said and I detest the french language. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:39 am Post subject: |
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What the *beep*? Dude, you are on an F2? Your boss has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE F2! You go to the office or send your wife, pay, waity 5 minutes and walk out with an extended F2. This post maks no sense. Where does your boss come into this? On an F2 you HAVE NO EXIT PAPERS. Eveything is done IN COUNTRY. There is no need to go to japan unless you are going on vacation. And again, F2 renewals have nothing to do with your boss.
You must mean E2. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:54 am Post subject: |
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This is what I think he meant...
Years ago he had an infraction while on an E2. He had heard that your fist blunder was a wash, that immi ignored it. He was late with his F2 renewal and had forgotten (or something like that) about his first infraction. Immi didn't want to hear any of it and they fined him.
That about it?
(can you see how unclear the original post is?) |
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kprrok
Joined: 06 Apr 2004
Location: KC
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
This is what I think he meant...
Years ago he had an infraction while on an E2. He had heard that your fist blunder was a wash, that immi ignored it. He was late with his F2 renewal and had forgotten (or something like that) about his first infraction. Immi didn't want to hear any of it and they fined him.
That about it?
(can you see how unclear the original post is?) |
Now if this is the case, this makes infinitely more sense. I was really confused by his post. I thought maybe it was a typo, and that he could correct it and not confuse others. Or if it wasn't a typo, I was just confused by the point.
I am not a troll tiger, but I do think that your post could have been a bit clearer.
If CC is correct, then I understand now why you made your post. It is a good thing to know, that past mistakes on an E-2 will affect you even if you change to an F-2 or other VISA.
My apologies if you took it to be an attack, but that was not my intent.
KPRROK |
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SeniorEnglish
Joined: 18 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:21 am Post subject: |
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Sorry to hear it Paper Tiger. I know how persuasive some bosses can get. Good on you for posting your story, I am sure it will happen to someone else.
For the rest of those unsympathetic people: If PT is like me, who lives in a rural area and hasn't talked face to face with a native speaker in more than 6 months, then perhaps he isn't well informed.
I can see that immigration laws always change and PT needed an E2 visa last year along with his F2 to work at the hogwan. There is a lot of confusion right there. Not to mention that when some people call immigration they can't get straight answers.
As for myself, I have never been in a legally bad situation here. My cohenes have grown dramatically since I got the F2. I think it is one of the only forms of power for me over punk bosses. My best weapon is knowledge I have gained from hearing about people's war stories. |
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