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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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 Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| The church that tells him what to think is American. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The church that tells him what to think is American. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
First: Our Founding Fathers Were Not Deists.
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I thought you were from Alberta? |
It's an overview of the article. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| I watched about 10 minutes of the program. There was nothing specific. Just allegations expressed in inflamatory language, with no specific example except that Noah Webster's first dictionary explained words using Biblical verses. For some reason beyond me, that that is no longer the case is appalling. |
Yeah, I loved that. Nothing like using a translated document as a source in explaining language. 
Second laugher is how she criticizes the inaccessability of documents that she went and photocopied. Yeah, they've been secreted away alright.
BTW, don't bother watching the rest. It's basically a continuation of vaguaries and selective anecdotes. All in the name of selling books and videos to gullible bible-thumpers. Basically a snake oil saleswoman.
Oh, and the guy is a Jews for Jesus bigot as well. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 3:43 am Post subject: |
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 lame...lame...lame.
I posted an article to validate her commentary. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
I think these are some of the points she was making.
American History is being systematically revised and this process has permeated not only schools, but the mass media as well. |
Yes, history changes. Because we learn more about history the further we are from it. She gives no evidence that the "new history" is wrong and the "old history" is right. She makes accusations of a cover up based upon the archiving of historic documents. It sounds like a lot of "things were better in my days" whining. I suppose she feels that Native Americans were savages, blacks enjoy being second class citizens, and whatever other nonsense they were teaching in 1930.
| Quote: |
First: Our Founding Fathers Were Not Deists. |
Comments based upon the article cited below.
First, they concede that some of the Founding Fathers were atheists or Deists. Second, they use selected quotes of other FFs mentioning Jesus Christ to prove that they were Christians. Not a very persuasive argument to me. I don't doubt that there was a strong religious influence on them, after all the church was much more monolithic and pervasive in the 17th century. But that doesn't prove that they were Christians, nor does it provide any relevance to our lives today. Of course they were going to quote the Bible. Who else was there to quote? These are the guys that created the quotes we use today.
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Second; There is no such thing as the Separation of Church and State.
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Semantic pedagogy. The Bill of Rights says that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." That it took 200 years for this to become a reality doesn't negate its validity. The religious right is trying to subjugate America with the same religious tyranny that lead the Pilgrims to America.
The Constitution mentions "all other persons" i.e. slaves. Are they arguing for its return? It's rather ironic that they then use Dred Scott to create their own martyrdom. The Constitution also fails to mention the electoral college, political parties, and the right to privacy. Are these things destroying our moral fabric as well?
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Third; Puritans were not "Puritanical." |
If the Puritans were as Puritanical as the current batch of "Christians," then there is no way you could call them "Puritanical".
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| http://www.faithofourfathers.org/essays/rewrittinghistory.html |
I don't see anything here that validates her arguments. Even as a non-historian, the article's methodology and proof is high schoolish, at best. Maybe something I would have written for sophmore US History class. Meanwhile, what's her name on the video was whining about a cover up (when she in fact went and copied these documents) and using the "great conspiracy theory" to shuck books and videos. I'm not impressed |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| Ok, that was way better! Why couldn't you just do that in the first place? Anyway, I will look at what you wrote in the next couple of days and get back to it. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
| Ok, that was way better! Why couldn't you just do that in the first place? |
I thought you wanted comments on the infomercial.  |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Of course they were going to quote the Bible. Who else was there to quote? These are the guys that created the quotes we use today.
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This is pretty much true. When people were hacking homes out of the frontier forests, the only book in most log cabins was the Bible. (The second most common book were collections of Shakespeare plays.) It makes sense that Webster would use the Bible in his dictionary.
As people got wealthier they were able to afford other books. In that sense, the Bible would decline in influence. It's a natural phenomenon. That woman sees a conspiracy where none exists. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| Frankly i'm all for critically revisiting... |
However, the key point is thinking critically when you do it. This is your downfall. |
And making predictably childish cheap shots is yours.
Mentally incontinent Moran. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:55 am Post subject: |
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[quote]
Yes, history changes. Because we learn more about history the further we are from it. She gives no evidence that the "new history" is wrong and the "old history" is right. She makes accusations of a cover up based upon the archiving of historic documents.
[quote/]
Maybe, because it's an interview and she isn't going to start reading her book.
http://www.home4schoolgear.com/rewofamhis.html
If you watched the video, she did make some points about her concerns. One being Thomas Jefferson and him being a deist/atheist who spawned many black children. It's an obvious attempt from the left to try and smear his reputation. Her points are valid.
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| It sounds like a lot of "things were better in my days" whining. I suppose she feels that Native Americans were savages, blacks enjoy being second class citizens, and whatever other nonsense they were teaching in 1930. |
You are making this kind of judgment from watching a part of a video? How arrogant are you?
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| First, they concede that some of the Founding Fathers were atheists or Deists. Second, they use selected quotes of other FFs mentioning Jesus Christ to prove that they were Christians. Not a very persuasive argument to me. I don't doubt that there was a strong religious influence on them, after all the church was much more monolithic and pervasive in the 17th century. But that doesn't prove that they were Christians, nor does it provide any relevance to our lives today. Of course they were going to quote the Bible. Who else was there to quote? These are the guys that created the quotes we use today. |
Ok, now you are making some good points and why I even am responding to your post. I think that when people concede points then it marks that it is more credible then someone who claims to know it all.
However, you are missing the point. Human Secularism is purposesly trying to remove the validity of religion on our history and culture. She makes this point well when she talks about how school books are being changed to appease human secularists and God haters. I don't know if you realize this or not, but children are very easily influenced and if they understand that their forefathers had a strong belief in God the Almighty then this could influence their lives.
Her evidence is the text book that she has from before the 1930's. In it, it talks about the influence of God and the bible upon the country. It's obvious why those who don't believe in God would want context like this removed. It's a threat to their own moral belief.
Does it make it right? No. Who cares if it was the only book in the America, it's a mute point. There should be mention of its influence on the founders and the constitution.
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Semantic pedagogy. The Bill of Rights says that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." That it took 200 years for this to become a reality doesn't negate its validity. The religious right is trying to subjugate America with the same religious tyranny that lead the Pilgrims to America. |
She covers this point, but you would have to watch the video to see what she has to say. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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What's a Moran? |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
However, you are missing the point. Human Secularism is purposesly trying to remove the validity of religion on our history and culture. She makes this point well when she talks about how school books are being changed to appease human secularists and God haters. I don't know if you realize this or not, but children are very easily influenced and if they understand that their forefathers had a strong belief in God the Almighty then this could influence their lives.
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Why is there no emoticon for smacking yourself in the head in complete disgust.
First, there are no God haters. Only 'you' haters. They don't believe in God so they can't hate Him
And yes, children are very easily influenced, that's why there should be NO religion whatsoever in schools. No Islam, No Hinduism, No Christianity. Their parents can choose, not the government or school board.
Still, that being said, if people are taking things out of history books based only on because they have religious connotations, they are doing a disservice to the children and that isn't right. If America was founded on Christianity, hiding that fact is not right. Religion is a part of history, and you can't hide it. But we must also make sure FiveEagles' ilk don't over-emphasize it or glorify it either. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
| huffdaddy wrote: |
Yes, history changes. Because we learn more about history the further we are from it. She gives no evidence that the "new history" is wrong and the "old history" is right. She makes accusations of a cover up based upon the archiving of historic documents.
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Maybe, because it's an interview and she isn't going to start reading her book.
http://www.home4schoolgear.com/rewofamhis.html |
It wasn't an interview. At least not an unbiased interview. Both interviewer and interviewee have the same agenda. Sounds like an infomerical to me.
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If you watched the video, she did make some points about her concerns. One being Thomas Jefferson and him being a deist/atheist who spawned many black children. It's an obvious attempt from the left to try and smear his reputation. Her points are valid. |
I did watch the video, but when it become an obvious informercial, and 28 minutes at that, my concentration moved to other things. So I must have missed it, but what's the motive for "smearing his reputation"? Should we also deny that any FFs owned slaves to avoid casting aspersions on their character?
From http://www.monticello.org/plantation/hemingscontro/hemings-jefferson_contro.html
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| The claim that Thomas Jefferson fathered children with Sally Hemings, a slave at Monticello, entered the public arena during Jefferson's first term as president, and it has remained a subject of discussion and disagreement for nearly two centuries. |
That's some smear campaign. 200 years strong!
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| It sounds like a lot of "things were better in my days" whining. I suppose she feels that Native Americans were savages, blacks enjoy being second class citizens, and whatever other nonsense they were teaching in 1930. |
You are making this kind of judgment from watching a part of a video? How arrogant are you? |
"I suppose..." is meant as hyperbole. No, she probably doesn't believe that. But if you're going to tell us that we should listen to our FFs about Christianity, tell us why we shouldn't also listen to them about slavery or Indian conquest or witch burning?
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| First, they concede that some of the Founding Fathers were atheists or Deists. Second, they use selected quotes of other FFs mentioning Jesus Christ to prove that they were Christians. Not a very persuasive argument to me. I don't doubt that there was a strong religious influence on them, after all the church was much more monolithic and pervasive in the 17th century. But that doesn't prove that they were Christians, nor does it provide any relevance to our lives today. Of course they were going to quote the Bible. Who else was there to quote? These are the guys that created the quotes we use today. |
Ok, now you are making some good points and why I even am responding to your post. I think that when people concede points then it marks that it is more credible then someone who claims to know it all. |
okay, I concede that some of the FFs were self-proclaimed Christians. Heck, 80% of the US population today identifies themselves as Christian. I'm guessing that nearly 100% of the population in 18th century America was Christian, attended church, and/or owned a Bible. I believe this is as about as relevant to our current life as the % of FFs who were slave owners.
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| However, you are missing the point. Human Secularism is purposesly trying to remove the validity of religion on our history and culture. |
Where is this Human Secularism Church and when do they meet? As far as conspiracy theories go, there's not even a smoking gun. Do you really think the left is that organized? Look at all the various interest groups with conflicting agendas: animal rights, gay rights, environmentalism, anti-war, anti-consumerism. "Liberals" can't agree on anything and can't get any of their policies enacted. Proof enough that there is no "conspiracy".
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| She makes this point well when she talks about how school books are being changed to appease human secularists and God haters. |
Textbooks are changed to appease any number of lobbying organizations. Both conservative (Educational Research Analysts) and liberal (Norman Lear's People for the American Way). In both instances, it's a very small minority of people fighting for their agenda. Hardly a conspiracy by either side. More like proof of the theorem "The squeaky wheel gets the oil."
Read this commentary on textbook adoption and the role Texas (a conservative religious state) plays in it.
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| I don't know if you realize this or not, but children are very easily influenced and if they understand that their forefathers had a strong belief in God the Almighty then this could influence their lives. |
I call B***s***. Children are not going to be influenced by the religion of Thomas Jefferson. If Christianity needs the FFs to make their case, you might as well hang it up.
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Her evidence is the text book that she has from before the 1930's. In it, it talks about the influence of God and the bible upon the country. It's obvious why those who don't believe in God would want context like this removed. It's a threat to their own moral belief.
Does it make it right? No. Who cares if it was the only book in the America, it's a mute point. There should be mention of its influence on the founders and the constitution. |
The Constitution was influenced a whole lot more by guys like Locke, Montesquieu, Voltaire, and Rousseau. Focusing on them seems a lot more historically relevant then focusing on the Bible, which was used to keep people in subjugation for 1500 years. To focus on the Bible's influence would be an focusing on the insignificant.
As much as Christianity wants to keep its talons in all areas of academics (e.g. science, history, philosophy), it should stick the area it knows best. Religion. And keep it where it belongs. In the church. Their history of scientific freedom and tolerance is enough to warrant their exclusion from any self-respecting institution of learning. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
Still, that being said, if people are taking things out of history books based only on because they have religious connotations, they are doing a disservice to the children and that isn't right. If America was founded on Christianity, hiding that fact is not right. Religion is a part of history, and you can't hide it. But we must also make sure FiveEagles' ilk don't over-emphasize it or glorify it either. |
Why is there no emotion for "get out of the bubble...bubble boy!" |
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