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Appeasement Never Seems to Work
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ddeubel



Joined: 20 Jul 2005

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Long before Al-Qaeda (whatever that means really, the definition is in the hands of those who want to make a boggie man out of it....) , there was Arab fanaticism and Arab iolence directed at the west.

It is not a GROWING threat. Or atleast won't be unless the U.S. does some reasonable things and stops its own foreign terrorism and starts supporting real democracy in the world.

There doesn't need to be any demand. Arab terrorists (used by the west also , for their own purposes...) will always be around as long as there is military intrusion into their affairs and funding of tyrants in the Arab world. It will go away if the U.S. starts being proactive and less militant/violent in its geopolitical world view. You don't see them bombing Switzerland????

Also, terrorism isn't any more prolific now. Actually less so. So you are paranoid and have a big hook right in your lower lip.

The only other option is that maybe there are Arabs that like to blow themselves up/commit suicide and kill others just for the fun of it. I know better, so this isn't an option, it isn't a game. So you are paranoid.

DD
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Octavius Hite wrote:
Well, you are arguing for extermination, you don't say that but thats the only real option if we are not to cede to the demands (both reasonable and unreasonable) then we must exterminate any Muslim who doesn't want McDonald's in Mecca, any Muslim who has cojones to object to Guantanamo Bay, any Muslim who is angry over the Israeli or American occupations in the Middle East. Hmm, your plan sounds like a resounding success. Sign me up.



When did I argue for extermination? When did I suggest anything about anyone who objects to Gitmo?

Everything you have wrote is a strawman. You go on and suggest that the alternative to making peace with Al Qaeda is civilizational warfare. You make Sundubuman look balanced, reasonable, and non-partisan by comparison.

You are on record as saying that you believe America should make peace with Al Qaeda, and you reply with this? I don't believe we should exterminate every Muslim, because every Muslim does not support Al Qaeda. Actually, a small minority of Muslims in the Muslim world support Al Qaeda, and it goes down the farther you get from the hinterlands of Pakistan (except Nigeria).



Pew Poll

As Joo has pointed out repeatedly, Al Qaeda has fascistic attributes largely because they attack fellow Muslims. Many attacks attributed to their agents have killed or wounded a great many Muslims.

It makes some sense to me should someone say, "Some of the goals Al Qaeda espouses are not unreasonable." But they have more goals than those stated, and the contention is not even entirely over their goals, but the horrible tactics they apply. I think you'll find that there are a lot of leftists on this board who would find your admonition to sue for peace with Al Qaeda to be quite abominable.
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Octavius Hite



Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no such thing as civilized warfare, thus your argument is moot.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Octavius Hite wrote:
There is no such thing as civilized warfare, thus your argument is moot.


I'm sorry, nobody could be this stupid. Are you a troll?

You advance the argument that not making peace with Al Qaeda leads to civilizational warfare and a process of extermination. So, either I'm for peace with Al Qaeda or I'm for the extermination of Muslims?

You are one hardcore left-wing nutjob.
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Octavius Hite



Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, my point is that warfare is never civilized thus flying a plane into a building is as evil as firing cruise missiles into crowded city centres as is giving uneducated aboriginees AK-47's as is laying landmines that stay active for a generation.

War doesn't solve anything. The more we kill, the more people we create that will want to kill us in return. There is a cycle at play, one accelerated by rich, evil people, that will not stop because unless we exterminate all but one group of homogenous people we will never end these conflicts. You can bomb and bomb and bomb every muslim country in the world and it will not defeat terrorism until we acknowledge our mistakes and try to do better.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Octavius Hite wrote:
No, my point is that warfare is never civilized thus flying a plane into a building is as evil as firing cruise missiles into crowded city centres as is giving uneducated aboriginees AK-47's as is laying landmines that stay active for a generation.

War doesn't solve anything. The more we kill, the more people we create that will want to kill us in return. There is a cycle at play, one accelerated by rich, evil people, that will not stop because unless we exterminate all but one group of homogenous people we will never end these conflicts. You can bomb and bomb and bomb every muslim country in the world and it will not defeat terrorism until we acknowledge our mistakes and try to do better.


Ah, okay. That's still asinine, but somewhat less so than before.

War sometimes solves some things. For example, when Al Zarqawi dies, less suicide bombings occur, and the fuel for civil war and division that he was trying to inspire in Iraq declines a bit.

There are a number of problems with your post. Firstly, you claim that rich, evil people started this cycle. Your Marxism is cute, but I wonder how it applies here. Saying that Osama Bin Laden exists because of Western Imperialism is roughly as irresponsible as saying that George Bush invaded Iraq because Al Qaeda hit the World Trade Center. While there is a history that exists and a context that shows that the World Trade Center bombings might have been one of many inspirations for George Bush invading Iraq, the invasion of Iraq is squarely on the shoulders of the Bush administration. Likewise, one cannot argue that Osama was in some way 'influenced' or 'forced' to bomb the Trade Towers. That was his own barbaric decision, not caused or forced at all necessarily by the acts of rich or evil people anywhere, even if he would argue that he did the act in response to their actions.

Secondly, you seem to believe the so-called 'cycle,' (and again, I disagree that there is a necessarily or demonstrably cyclical nature to this conflict) can be stopped by a dialogue and a peace process. This despite the fact that you admit the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is hardly simple or easy to ameliorate. Well, what would suggest to Americans that an enemy that has bombed one of their civilian centers could be trusted with a truce? Whatever you think of Iraq, the conflict there and the conflict with Al Qaeda, while connected, are largely two distinct projects. Give Hitler Czechoslovakia, and he might suppose he can grab Poland, too. Not to mention that it would not be fair to victims of the next Al Qaeda attack, or Czechoslovakians, that they should be treated as pawns in the mere hope of ending a conflict.

Thirdly, you tend to believe that Al Qaeda is a concrete organization that can be reasoned with. Should we believe that even if we make a treaty with Zawahiri and Bin Laden, that the Zarqawis and other local players would respect that agreement? What is to enforce the agreement? What guarentees could the US possibly provide?

I think one of the reasons your opinion is so unfortunate is that it comes close to saying something quite reasonable and rational. Namely, that some of the goals Al Qaeda espouses should be pursued by the US in more peaceful means. It's just that you have accompanied this with the assertion that the only way to stop the violence is to try to deal peacefully with a fascistic, radical, and not-even-quite-a-solid organization like Al Qaeda. That's where you go from making some sense into purely naive and asinine territory.
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ddeubel



Joined: 20 Jul 2005

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros,

I was going to reply but after reading your musings, I have to refrain. You , like so many , have bought into the arguement of Al-Qaeda the terrible, insidious, killing thousands and thousands, week in and week out. They are everywhere and can't be named and can't be bargained with and don't have goals, aims. They just are..............

Sounds like something from a Hitchcock film or Kafka. .........

Then the doozy....
Quote:
As Joo has pointed out repeatedly


You knowing his mind so intimately, I must infer allegiance and that you are in the mud and air of ignorance with him.....

The world is much bigger than you think. Leave Al - Qaeda alone, the U.S. is just making it happen.....

DD
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:40 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

To clarify,

Kuros,

You're arguing that our war is to force Al Quaeda/radical Muslims to submit to "the West".

Is that what you're saying?
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Octavius Hite wrote:
Uh read Richard Clarke's book Against all Enemies. In the book Clarke talks about Al-Qaeda's demands: 1. Leave the holy land (no bases on the Arabian penensula) 2. Stop supporting Israel 3. Stop propping up Arab dictators

That's all they want. Those are the demands.

1 and 3 are easy to meet. The 2nd one is a problem but America could certainly do a better job of being more impartial in that conflict.


I can't believe on the one hand, how you do manage to be very suspicious of the American government (and this is warranted), but on the other, you take a violent organization's open demands at face value.

'But Al Qaeda just wants this...'

I mean, could you be any more naive?



Nope, don't think it's possible.

OH, dude, come on.. Are you that big of a sucker to believe that??

Quote:
Leave Al - Qaeda alone, the U.S. is just making it happen.....


yeah, poor al-qaeda. just getting picked on by the big bad usa.

Rolling Eyes


Now if both of you are saying that if the US were to change its foreign policy and to follow some of Al-Qaeda's suggestions/demands/whatever, it would weaken Al-Qaeda, then yes, perhaps. But if you really think that Al-Qaeda would just dissapear if we followed all that, then you really are naive and need a better understanding of fundamentalists.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Octavius Hite wrote:
Uh read Richard Clarke's book Against all Enemies. In the book Clarke talks about Al-Qaeda's demands: 1. Leave the holy land (no bases on the Arabian penensula) 2. Stop supporting Israel 3. Stop propping up Arab dictators

That's all they want. Those are the demands.

1 and 3 are easy to meet. The 2nd one is a problem but America could certainly do a better job of being more impartial in that conflict.


And Hitler just wanted the Sudetenland.

By the way, Al Qaeda wants Israel wiped off the map. When it talks about 'ending support for Israel' it is not talking about a 2 state solution. You seem to actually think you are dealing with reasonable people, with reasonable demands and not religious fanatics whose goal is for Islam to dominate the globe.

And the whole 'stop propping up Arab dictators' thing. You make it sound like Al Qaeda are some grass roots democracy movement. Their idea of a perfect society is something very close to the political system of Saudi, minus the royals.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ddeubel wrote:
There doesn't need to be any demand. Arab terrorists (used by the west also , for their own purposes...) will always be around as long as there is military intrusion into their affairs and funding of tyrants in the Arab world. It will go away if the U.S. starts being proactive and less militant/violent in its geopolitical world view. You don't see them bombing Switzerland????

Also, terrorism isn't any more prolific now. Actually less so. So you are paranoid and have a big hook right in your lower lip.

The only other option is that maybe there are Arabs that like to blow themselves up/commit suicide and kill others just for the fun of it. I know better, so this isn't an option, it isn't a game. So you are paranoid.

DD


Stop talking about 'Arab' terrorism. It is not a nationalist political movement anymore but a distinctly religious movement with a religious agenda, incoporating Arabs, Kurds, Chechens, Malays, Pakistanis and so on. Call it by its proper name - Islamic terrorism.

You say that such terrorism will go away if the US becomes less violent in its political worldview. How does this relate to Islamic terrorism in the Phillipines, Indonesia, Thailand and Kashmir? Are these all noble freedom fighters fighting against injustice?

Another 'useful idiot' of the global Jihad.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Leave Al - Qaeda alone, the U.S. is just making it happen.....


Just when I thought you couldn't get any dumber....
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Octavius Hite



Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I dont think that Al-Qaeda will stop just because the US changes its foriegn policy. But if the US were to change its foriegn policy and remove troops from the middle east and stop blindly supporting Israel then they would have regained the moral high ground in the fight. The US is losing because every western democracy opposes them becaus etheir policies are hypocritical. We want democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan but in Palestine, to bad. We are against drugs, excet when the CIA is selling them or the Afghani's are. Car bombing a market is a crime but flattening Falluja is completly ok. Don't you guys see these issues? are you stunned?

If the US met the demands of Al-Qaeda then if they didn't stop then the US could rally the world and really take the fight to them, but that won't happen so it will just be America fighting this foolish thing (and losing).
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dogbert



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Octavius Hite wrote:
No, I dont think that Al-Qaeda will stop just because the US changes its foriegn policy. But if the US were to change its foriegn policy and remove troops from the middle east and stop blindly supporting Israel then they would have regained the moral high ground in the fight. The US is losing because every western democracy opposes them becaus etheir policies are hypocritical. We want democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan but in Palestine, to bad. We are against drugs, excet when the CIA is selling them or the Afghani's are. Car bombing a market is a crime but flattening Falluja is completly ok. Don't you guys see these issues? are you stunned?

If the US met the demands of Al-Qaeda then if they didn't stop then the US could rally the world and really take the fight to them, but that won't happen so it will just be America fighting this foolish thing (and losing).


I agree.

Don't call it "meeting the demands of Al Qaeda", it's taking a more principled and less hypocritical position and following it up with action.
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ddeubel



Joined: 20 Jul 2005

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Stop talking about 'Arab' terrorism. It is not a nationalist political movement anymore but a distinctly religious movement with a religious agenda, incoporating Arabs, Kurds, Chechens, Malays, Pakistanis and so on. Call it by its proper name - Islamic terrorism.

You say that such terrorism will go away if the US becomes less violent in its political worldview. How does this relate to Islamic terrorism in the Phillipines, Indonesia, Thailand and Kashmir? Are these all noble freedom fighters fighting against injustice?

Another 'useful idiot' of the global Jihad.


Didn't Blake say that if "an idiot persists he will become a genius"? Or aren't idiots said to be closest to God? -- okay, on with my point to make.

Maybe I should have used the word - Islamic terrorists. But Muslim (in the religious sense) , it is not!!! I think people are so wrong to paint all these various movements into one label......just too damn convenient and one way to create the notion of US and Them when it isn't anything that clear.

Most of the "terrorism" IS nationalistic and the Islamicness of it, is only used to finance the movement and as a way of enlarging their profile (now given the U.S. and its chest out attitude.). Chechnya is NOT an islamic Jihad, they are just fooling everyone , including you , if you think that. Same with the phillipines (more about Communism) and Thailand and Kashmir and Afghanistan and Pakistan. Kurds too. Nationalism it is and all the other "religious " stuff is used by these people/leaders and Bush also to conceal the facts. This is one of the big lies, making this into a "world" thing/conflict when nothing really has changed. all except the perspective and that is for the worse - just leads to more sides, doing more killing.

I abhor the "Islamic" violence , as much as I do the U.S. "state" violence. Same thing, objectifying people, making them expendable and killing in the name of some fanciful notion which has little to do with survival or bread on the table.......But also look at why these people fight??? Ever gone through Chechnya, I have. Ain't pretty. Also imagine Egypt or the Phillipines. Brutal. There are real reasons these people fight and it isn't for the virgins and jihad. It is for a future.

Not condoning it but we have to start understanding it and not just blustering and throwing oil on the fire. Take the example of Uzbekistan ......lots there done wrong. But we don't make a principalled stand but rather invite the dictator to dinner and give him millions in dollars in arms (which many find their way to those fighting on the other side, when it is all about MONEY. How many U.S. soldiers were probably killed in Iraq with Made in America explosives/arms/bullets???? Many. Sorry to say. ).

People/nations should start talking to each other. Treating each other with respect and start listening to each other. I bet if the U.S. would just sit down in an informal atmosphere with N.Korea, a lot there would get solved too.......But alas there are too many hidden agendas.

Believe in the notion of "Islamic " revolution all you want. It is just a cover for many nationalistic aspirations. If you believe in the notion of "Islamic" terror and jihad, you are just buying into the fear and myth these leaders want to create, nurture.

DD
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