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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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 Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:34 pm Post subject: What would it take to convince you that . . . |
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. . . God exists?
■ if there were a religion composed of people who were measurably smarter, more creative, physically healthier, and morally better than believers in any other religion.
■ if there were a scripture which was free from inconsistencies and historical errors, and revealing scientific knowledge which is more advanced than that of the people living at the time.
■ if there were a religion which was infallible in its prophesies.
See if you can guess what religious group made this prediction:
By the year 2000, there would be an apocalypse which would kill one-third of the world's population. The United States would lead the world in peace, but it would have to undergo untold suffering first. In fact, the United States would be in such chaos that no one would willing run for President.
While evil is at its peak, good will also be at its peak. There would be an upsurge in the areas of transportation and communication. All the major innovations which will ever be made would be made by the year 2000. The universe is "teeming with life." Visits between our planet and other inhabited planets would start to become commonplace.
Furthermore, this apocalypse would pay off. After the apocalypse, the world's leaders would see the futility in waging war. They would lay down their arms and resort to diplomacy instead.
. . . UFO stories are real?
■ if an extraterrestrial materialized himself for all to see.
In the Sixties, there were jokes about space aliens landing in front of an Earthling and saying, "Take me to your leader."
I wish a space alien really would land and say that.
■ if an approaching spacecraft were seen by all the astronomers on one side of the world.
. . . claims made by yogis, psychics, or mediums are real?
■ if a psychic consistently made predictions which came true.
In 1984, there was to be a world war with the United States and the Soviet Union allied against Communist China. Then a world ruler would appear and there would be everlasting peace.
At least, that's what Jeane Dixon said.
■ if a yogi, psychic, or medium passed a test in front of a skeptic group or a stage magician.
Remember The Amazing Randi? He admits that he perform all his tricks by sleight of hand, and with no help from the supernatural powers. He challenges anyone else to perform a trick any other way. In fact, he has a one-million-dollar check waiting for the first person who can meet this challenge.
Randi is only one of the many parties offering cash prizes to persons who can prove paranormal claims. A few days ago, I saw a Website providing a long list of such parties.
A psychic claimant may say, "Oh, but I use my powers to help people, not to get rich." Fine. Let that psychic receive Randi's check and forward it to the Katrina victims. That will help people, won't it? |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:13 pm Post subject: Re: What would it take to convince you that . . . |
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Good question.
| tomato wrote: |
. . . God exists?
■ if there were a religion composed of people who were measurably smarter, more creative, physically healthier, and morally better than believers in any other religion.
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No. Maybe their religion teaches that God doesn't have an active hand in human affairs, so they become more productive and rely less on prayer. Isn't that how the Industrial Revolution began?
| tomato wrote: |
■ if there were a scripture which was free from inconsistencies and historical errors, and revealing scientific knowledge which is more advanced than that of the people living at the time.
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No, but it would point to evidence of extraterrestrial involvement in early humanity, or possibly the Battlestar Galactica origin of life.
| tomato wrote: |
■ if there were a religion which was infallible in its prophesies.
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I'd be a little more willing to believe this one.
| tomato wrote: |
See if you can guess what religious group made this prediction:
By the year 2000, there would be an apocalypse which would kill one-third of the world's population. The United States would lead the world in peace, but it would have to undergo untold suffering first. In fact, the United States would be in such chaos that no one would willing run for President.
While evil is at its peak, good will also be at its peak. There would be an upsurge in the areas of transportation and communication. All the major innovations which will ever be made would be made by the year 2000. The universe is "teeming with life." Visits between our planet and other inhabited planets would start to become commonplace.
Furthermore, this apocalypse would pay off. After the apocalypse, the world's leaders would see the futility in waging war. They would lay down their arms and resort to diplomacy instead.
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Just gonna guess Christianity.
| tomato wrote: |
. . . UFO stories are real?
■ if an extraterrestrial materialized himself for all to see.
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Still could be a very good hoax.
| tomato wrote: |
■ if an approaching spacecraft were seen by all the astronomers on one side of the world.
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Why only one? Doesn't the earth rotate?
| tomato wrote: |
. . . claims made by yogis, psychics, or mediums are real?
■ if a psychic consistently made predictions which came true.
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If it could be tested.
| tomato wrote: |
■ if a yogi, psychic, or medium passed a test in front of a skeptic group or a stage magician.
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If it could be duplicated under many different conditions, I would be forced to believe it. So far, no dice. |
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WorldWide
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:42 am Post subject: |
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If the rapture comes and I'm left behind... then I might believe  
Otherwise God is no more real than Harry Potter! |
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flotsam
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:25 am Post subject: |
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That was so cool.
The thread discussing whether or not WW should be banned was zapped just as I was writing a post. Hit submit and got a big fat: Only Moderators Can Respond To Posts In This Forum Message.
Now I'm convinced. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:03 am Post subject: |
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| Hold on tomato...It requires no effort to believe in the obvious. you want proof before you accept anything, rather an unimpressive trait. There is no merit, no faith in believing in gravity. There are no prizes for accepting only what you see. "It is impossible to please God without faith". No real human achievement, from inventors to athletes, has come about without faith and belief. This is what champions rather than mere followers are made of. Most scientific and other advancements were seemingly impossible or nonsensical before someone with faith made them a reality. A leap of imagination distinguishes the winners from the losers. Thats what it takes. |
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flotsam
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| Now hold on Junior...do you think that faith and belief have inspired everyone? Pretty sure someone like Thomas Edison would have leaned more toward genius and perspiration. And what about Kurt Vonnegut and Karl Marx? You may be able to say that their belief in themselves or their purposes are equivalent to faith, but I think they would argue the hell out of that suggestion. |
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Tiberious aka Sparkles
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:04 am Post subject: |
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| flotsam wrote: |
That was so cool.
The thread discussing whether or not WW should be banned was zapped just as I was writing a post. Hit submit and got a big fat: Only Moderators Can Respond To Posts In This Forum Message.
Now I'm convinced. |
WW is wackers.
And you are Jongno Guru!!!
Poktanju*_* |
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flotsam
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:08 am Post subject: |
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| Tiberious aka Sparkles wrote: |
| flotsam wrote: |
That was so cool.
The thread discussing whether or not WW should be banned was zapped just as I was writing a post. Hit submit and got a big fat: Only Moderators Can Respond To Posts In This Forum Message.
Now I'm convinced. |
WW is wackers.
And you are Jongno Guru!!!
Poktanju*_* |
Shut up Derrek. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:18 am Post subject: |
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So..derek/Flotsam/jongnoguru..
Some quotes from Thomas edison:
Have faith and go forward.
Until man duplicates a blade of grass, nature can laugh at his so-called scientific knowledge....
Its obvious that we don't know one millionth of one percent about anything.
I believe that the science of chemistry alone almost proves the existence of an intelligent creator. |
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flotsam
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
So..derek/Flotsam/jongnoguru..
Some quotes from Thomas edison:
Have faith and go forward.
Until man duplicates a blade of grass, nature can laugh at his so-called scientific knowledge....
Its obvious that we don't know one millionth of one percent about anything.
I believe that the science of chemistry alone almost proves the existence of an intelligent creator. |
Well shucky darn. I guess he wasn't a doubting Thomas. OK, hastily thrown out example, but the point still stands. (And I replace him with Mao...  ) I would say there have been many, many quite accomplished dudes and dudettes that did not rely on on faith for inspiration. And there are probably more and more as time goes on. Not, actually, that I have a beef with belief as the source of the muse, just that I think basically declaring it a prerequisite for greatness is going too far.
P.S. I know you are really Troll_Bait. |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:50 am Post subject: |
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Thomas Edison is scum. He didn't invent things, just paid inventors poor wages to make inventions that he'd patent to his company. He sure pulled one over on Tesla, who was ten times the genius he was.
Okay, he did invent the electric chair. But he did it because he hated Tesla and he wanted to discredit Tesla's work. He actually paid neighbourhood kids money to round up stray pets so he could test the electric chair out. Seriously, fark that guy. Fark him right in his ear. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
Thomas Edison is scum. He didn't invent things, just paid inventors poor wages to make inventions that he'd patent to his company. He sure pulled one over on Tesla, who was ten times the genius he was.
Okay, he did invent the electric chair. But he did it because he hated Tesla and he wanted to discredit Tesla's work. He actually paid neighbourhood kids money to round up stray pets so he could test the electric chair out. Seriously, fark that guy. Fark him right in his ear. |
I don't know enough about his life to agree or disagree. However what he said is quite inspiring:
Thomas edison quotes (if you feel like reading):
My main purpose in life is to make enough money to create ever more inventions.... The dove is my emblem.... I want to save and advance human life, not destroy it.... I am proud of the fact that I have never invented weapons to kill....
I never perfected an invention that I did not think about in terms of the service it might give others... I find out what the world needs, then I proceed to invent....
My principal business consists of giving commercial value to the brilliant, but misdirected, ideas of others.... Accordingly, I never pick up an item without thinking of how I might improve it.
I readily absorb ideas from every source, frequently starting where the last person left off.
Because ideas have to be original only with regard to their adaptation to the problem at hand, I am always extremely interested in how others have used them....
A good idea is never lost. Even though its originator or possessor may die without publicizing it, it will someday be reborn in the mind of another....
I am not overly impressed by the great names and reputations of those who might be trying to beat me to an invention.... Its their 'ideas' that appeal to me. I am quite correctly described as 'more of a sponge than an inventor....'
"Genius is one per cent inspiration and ninety-nine per cent perspiration. Accordingly, a 'genius' is often merely a talented person who has done all of his or her homework."
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
The first requisite for success is to develop the ability to focus and apply your mental and physical energies to the problem at hand - without growing weary. Because such thinking is often difficult, there seems to be no limit to which some people will go to avoid the effort and labor that is associated with it....
I never did anything worth doing entirely by accident.... Almost none of my inventions were derived in that manner. They were achieved by having trained myself to be analytical and to endure and tolerate hard work.
Inspiration can be found in a pile of junk. Sometimes, you can put it together with a good imagination and invent something.
Personally, I enjoy working about 18 hours a day. Besides the short catnaps I take each day, I average about four to five hours of sleep per night.
Most of the exercise I get is from standing and walking all day from one laboratory table to another. I derive more benefit and entertainment from this than some of my friends and competitors get from playing games like golf.
If we all did the things we are really capable of doing, we would literally astound ourselves....
Our schools are not teaching students to think. It is astonishing how many young people have difficulty in putting their brains definitely and systematically to work....
The three things that are most essential to achievement are common sense, hard work and stick-to-it-iv-ness.....
I have far more respect for the person with a single idea who gets there than for the person with a thousand ideas who does nothing....
Many of life's failures are experienced by people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up.
Pretty much everything will come to him who hustles while he waits. I believe that restlessness is discontent, and discontent is merely the first necessity of progress. Show me a thoroughly satisfied man and I will show you a failure.
Unfortunately, there seems to be far more opportunity out there than ability.... We should remember that good fortune often happens when opportunity meets with preparation.
Just because something doesn't do what you planned it to do in the first place doesn't mean it's useless....
Results? Why, man, I have gotten lots of results! If I find 10,000 ways something won't work, I haven't failed. I am not discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is often a step forward....
Surprises and reverses can serve as an incentive for great accomplishment. There are no rules here, we're just trying to accomplish something.
As a cure for worrying, work is far better than whiskey. I always found that, if I began to worry, the best thing I could do was focus upon doing something useful and then work very hard at it. Soon, I would forget what was troubling me.
Barring serious accidents, if you are not preoccupied with worry and you work hard, you can look forward to a reasonably lengthy existence.... Its not the hard work that kills, its the worrying that kills.
The only time I really become discouraged is when I think of all the things I would like to do and the little time I have in which to do them.
The thing I lose patience with the most is the clock. Its hands move too fast.
Time is really the only capital that any human being has and the thing that he can least afford to waste or lose...
From his neck down a man is worth a couple of dollars a day, from his neck up he is worth anything that his brain can produce.
The doctor of the future will give no medicine, but will interest his patients in the care of the human body, in diet, and in the cause and prevention of disease.
Whatever the mind of man creates, should be controlled by man's character.
I love great music and art, but I think 'cubist' songs and paintings are hideous.
Someday, man will harness the rise and fall of the tides, imprison the power of the sun, and release atomic power.
I am both pleased but astonished by the fact that mankind has not yet begun to use all the means and devices that are available for destruction. I hope that such weapons are never manufactured in quantity.
The United States, and other advanced nations, will someday be able to produce instruments of death so terrible the world will be in abject terror of itself and its ability to end civilization.... Such war-making weapons should be developed - but only for purposes of discovery and experimentation
The dove is my emblem.... I want to save and advance human life, not destroy it.... I am proud of the fact that I never invented weapons to kill...
To me, the idea and expectation that the day is slowly and surely coming when we will be able to honestly say we are our brother's keeper and not his oppressor is very beautiful .
Until man duplicates a blade of grass, nature can laugh at his so-called scientific knowledge....
Its obvious that we don't know one millionth of one percent about anything.
I believe that the science of chemistry alone almost proves the existence of an intelligent creator.
We have merely scratched the surface of the store of knowledge which will come to us. I believe that we are now, a-tremble on the verge of vast discoveries - discoveries so wondrously important they will upset the present trend of human thought and start it along completely new lines .
Be courageous! Whatever setbacks America has encountered, it has always emerged as a stronger and more prosperous nation.... Be brave as your fathers before you. Have faith and go forward!
If parents pass enthusiasm along to their children, they will leave them an estate of incalculable value....
The memory of my mother will always be a blessing to me....
Life's most soothing things are a child's goodnight and sweet music....
Great music and art are earthly wonders, but I think 'cubist' songs and paintings are hideous.
Even though I am nearly deaf, I seem to be gifted with a kind of inner hearing which enables me to detect sounds and noises that the listeners do not perceive.
Of all my inventions, I liked the phonograph best...." |
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
So..derek/Flotsam/jongnoguru..
Some quotes from Thomas edison:
1. Have faith and go forward.
2. Until man duplicates a blade of grass, nature can laugh at his so-called scientific knowledge....
3. Its obvious that we don't know one millionth of one percent about anything.
4. I believe that the science of chemistry alone almost proves the existence of an intelligent creator. |
(see bold and numbers)
I actually agree with Junior that absolutely everything requires faith. Science relies upon faith in metaphysical entities like numbers and concepts - none of which the empirical sciences can hope to enlighten us on, or even bother to try.
However, the above quotes are haphazard b0llocks!
1 simply means believe in stuff. Well, thanks for that.
2. is rather far-fetched. Man can understand the rudiments of the universe - black holes, why planets orbit stars, how many years it would take to get across our galaxy. Seems a bit pesimistic to suggest that we know sod all because we can't replicate a blade of grass (which we probably can these days).
3. is probably true, but it requires great faith in the majesty and complexity of nature in order to arrive at that conclusion - as opposed to the belief that mother nature is a barren, featureless desert of which there are no answers whatsoever because ultimately nothing thinks other than us.
4. The 'intelligent creator' doesn't answer any questions to the serious, hardcore thinker. It merely adds another (indeed greater) cause for enquiry.
Edison sounds like a religious (if seminal) chap from the Victorian era. Thank goodness he stuck to electricity and the more earthly sciences, because if the above is anything to go by, he is to the really big questions what Dubya is to improving the image of America. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:47 am Post subject: Re: What would it take to convince you that . . . |
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| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
| tomato wrote: |
See if you can guess what religious group made this prediction:
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Just gonna guess Christianity.
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Sorry.
I'll give you a hint:
it was a historically recent religious group. |
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flotsam
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:50 am Post subject: Re: What would it take to convince you that . . . |
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| tomato wrote: |
| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
| tomato wrote: |
See if you can guess what religious group made this prediction:
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Just gonna guess Christianity.
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Sorry.
I'll give you a hint:
it was a historically recent religious group. |
Baha'i |
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