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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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 Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Troll_Bait wrote: |
You can discuss morality in the classroom. Many text books have discussion questions like, "If you found a wallet with $500 in it on the sidewalk, what would you do?"
And if you say, "I'd give the wallet, and all of its money, back to the owner because I believe in 'The Ten Commandments'," then that's fine, too.
It would not be OK teach or imply that Christianity has some kind of monopoly on morality.
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The problem is that Christianity specifically dictates that theirs is the only correct morality. I don't trust a Christian to understand the difference between 2000-year-old superstition and modern-day, practical morality. |
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Moldy Rutabaga
Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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I think that in public schools religion and philosophy can be presented in a nonsectarian way if it relates to a particular subject or lesson. A teacher may disclose his or her own beliefs in response to students questions, but it's not professional or ethical for a teacher to teach particular sectarian beliefs as the only true way to God, heaven - or nirvana. Of course, teachers shouldn't push atheism either.
There are many private Christian schools where evangelical teachers would be a good fit... I don't think there would necessarily be a problem with evangelical teachers discussing their faith after class with Christian students who want to speak in English about it. |
I think this is an excellent post. To me, to explain a text without discussing the cultural or religious issues behind it is going to be a shallow explanation. I once knew a student who complained in class that religion shouldn't be discussed in school. The professor protested, this is a course in medieval European history; how am I going to explain this culture to you without discussing the role religion played in it?
Some of the posts written here make me angry. There is the usual scapegoat for all problems, the church. But the people who refuse to discuss any religious issue at all in class are in a way evangelizing their atheism just the same. The real trick in teaching is, I think, balance. If a subject comes up that's religious, we let the students say what they think, and if they ask us, we tell them what we think. But we don't force it into the discussion, and we don't tell anyone that it's my morality or the highway.
In regard to teaching Narnia, to me it is a good example of this. If teaching it to adults, we can discuss the symbolic or religious grounding of the text. But small children won't understand this level, and teaching them that this or that character represents Christ is a sneaky way of making the class Sunday School. That is an abuse of class time.
Having said all this, so we are all colonizers of Koreans by being ESL teachers? I wonder if the poster has ever been here. In 3-4 years of teaching here I wonder if I've changed anything. After instructing adult teachers for five months, I may have improved their English slightly, but they go back to Korean society full-time and my cultural influence is entirely lost. Anyone who believes that all the students model us is drastically overinflating their own importance. They see us for an hour, and they see their parents, friends, TV, and relatives doing things the Korean way the rest of the time. Who is going to win?
As far as language influencing and being influenced by religion, it is partly true, but only partly. The 'Christian chassis' of English is not really that much, even after 1,500 years of evangelism. English is a Germanic language, and that language predates English and already had such concepts as I/we/you differentiation. Although we do have many Christian expressions in English, many of them from Shakespeare or the King James bible, we also thank our lucky stars and knock on wood--and the only pronoun in uppercase is 'I'! Old English and German also have levels of grammatical respect (thou and you, du and Sie). Arguing that Korea will be colonized via English grammatical modes in fifty years is preposterous.
Ken:> |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Moldy Rutabaga wrote: |
| Quote: |
I think that in public schools religion and philosophy can be presented in a nonsectarian way if it relates to a particular subject or lesson. A teacher may disclose his or her own beliefs in response to students questions, but it's not professional or ethical for a teacher to teach particular sectarian beliefs as the only true way to God, heaven - or nirvana. Of course, teachers shouldn't push atheism either.
There are many private Christian schools where evangelical teachers would be a good fit... I don't think there would necessarily be a problem with evangelical teachers discussing their faith after class with Christian students who want to speak in English about it. |
I think this is an excellent post. To me, to explain a text without discussing the cultural or religious issues behind it is going to be a shallow explanation. I once knew a student who complained in class that religion shouldn't be discussed in school. The professor protested, this is a course in medieval European history; how am I going to explain this culture to you without discussing the role religion played in it?
Some of the posts written here make me angry. There is the usual scapegoat for all problems, the church. But the people who refuse to discuss any religious issue at all in class are in a way evangelizing their atheism just the same. The real trick in teaching is, I think, balance. If a subject comes up that's religious, we let the students say what they think, and if they ask us, we tell them what we think. But we don't force it into the discussion, and we don't tell anyone that it's my morality or the highway.
In regard to teaching Narnia, to me it is a good example of this. If teaching it to adults, we can discuss the symbolic or religious grounding of the text. But small children won't understand this level, and teaching them that this or that character represents Christ is a sneaky way of making the class Sunday School. That is an abuse of class time.
Having said all this, so we are all colonizers of Koreans by being ESL teachers? I wonder if the poster has ever been here. In 3-4 years of teaching here I wonder if I've changed anything. After instructing adult teachers for five months, I may have improved their English slightly, but they go back to Korean society full-time and my cultural influence is entirely lost. Anyone who believes that all the students model us is drastically overinflating their own importance. They see us for an hour, and they see their parents, friends, TV, and relatives doing things the Korean way the rest of the time. Who is going to win?
As far as language influencing and being influenced by religion, it is partly true, but only partly. The 'Christian chassis' of English is not really that much, even after 1,500 years of evangelism. English is a Germanic language, and that language predates English and already had such concepts as I/we/you differentiation. Although we do have many Christian expressions in English, many of them from Shakespeare or the King James bible, we also thank our lucky stars and knock on wood--and the only pronoun in uppercase is 'I'! Old English and German also have levels of grammatical respect (thou and you, du and Sie). Arguing that Korea will be colonized via English grammatical modes in fifty years is preposterous.
Ken:> |
Where are the scores of people going out in the world to promote atheism as a life choice to students and choosing that as the main reason for persuing an ESL job? You've created a straw man as most religious exclusivists are wont to do in equating a secularist agenda with the negation of all religion. Its not about that, but rather putting it in its right place, be that the home or freely chosen religious schooling. What would the reaction be if communists were similarly trying to infiltrate educational institutes, or any other political or value-based group? There would be a shitestorm, that is for sure. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| jaganath69 wrote: |
Where are the scores of people going out in the world to promote atheism as a life choice to students and choosing that as the main reason for persuing an ESL job? You've created a straw man as most religious exclusivists are wont to do in equating a secularist agenda with the negation of all religion. Its not about that, but rather putting it in its right place, be that the home or freely chosen religious schooling. What would the reaction be if communists were similarly trying to infiltrate educational institutes, or any other political or value-based group? There would be a *beep*, that is for sure. |
Ya, I always hated that argument. People are not preaching atheism. They make a board where nothing is preached. I am not saying there are not a few people who might actually preach atheism, but while I admit there are probably some, the number would in no way compare to Christians who would do it. I am agnostic, I honestly wouldn't not want someone telling my kid that there is definitely not any other answer other than nothing. I know science is better than organized religion for answering things, but to say there is definitely is no God is wrong. The thing is, I have no worries of this happening. I do have worries that one a Christian will throw their personal beliefs into my kid's class. I am also worried about my born-again sister. I told her I wasn't gonna baptize my kid (it can be done later in life if he/she opts to do it) and she got all Ned Flanders on me.
Go back to my sex analogy. How many parents want me to say that to their kid? I am betting not many. Keep personal opinions out of class. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| BTW, where did the little birdie go to anyways??? |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| If you believe in the existence of a soul and God then the promotion of atheism in schools would cause a lot of harm spiritually. The promotion of religious values in a nonsectarian way would not do comparable damage to atheists and so-called "secular humanists" (nicer term for atheists...) because they ultimately don't believe in much. Sectarian religious agendas in public schools would potentially do lots of harm, however... |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
| If you believe in the existence of a soul and God then the promotion of atheism in schools would cause a lot of harm spiritually. The promotion of religious values in a nonsectarian way would not do comparable damage to atheists and so-called "secular humanists" (nicer term for atheists...) because they ultimately don't believe in much. Sectarian religious agendas in public schools would potentially do lots of harm, however... |
Like I said, what we need is schools where nothing is preached, athiestic or religious in nature. It's up to the parent, or even the children when they are older to figure it out.
The same can be said for the opposite though RTeacher. I find praying just makes people lazy. People also just accept things more because they think it's God's will and they can't do anything against it. These are just some examples of how religion can affect someone who went through life without faith. |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
| If you believe in the existence of a soul and God then the promotion of atheism in schools would cause a lot of harm spiritually. |
I've never heard of a school teaching atheism though, unless you take the fundamentalist line and claim that evolution disproves God. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Just to make you all feel better, it does work both ways. This weekend at a bar I met two Philippinas who were here on missionary visas but working in hogwans as English teachers (and teaching privates). It was 2AM and they were both a bit smashed. I doubt they're doing very much, if any, evangelising over here. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Troll_Bait wrote: |
| flakfizer wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
I was talking with some of my kids about The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe and told them explicitly what it's based on. Why shouldn't they know? I've also taught my kids Bohemian Rhapsody and explained what 'Bealzebub has a devil put aside for me' means. Why shouldn't they know? I've also taught my kids explicitly Christian Christmas charols and tried to explain the context. Again, why shouldn't they know?
Koreans may be cultural Philistines but at least teachers here don't have to put up with the PC crap that teachers back home do. Back home I'm sure I'd have an equal share of idiot Christians and idiot agnostics / atheists breathing down my neck. When I taught history as a TA one of things I often told my students is that they should read the Bible if they want better to understand what was motivating a great many historical figures. I think it should be part of any liberal arts curriculum; however, with so many *beep* for brains PC administrators out and about I'm sure that will never happen at any western university. The PC brigade is on the same level as FiveEagles intellectually. |
Good post. I have found that Koreans don't need PC because they can generally discuss religion/philosophy without getting all touchy and upset. Their friendships seem to based more on seating charts and shared experiences than on similar belief systems and they don't seem to mind disagreement very much. Why not bring up some deeper topics in class (if the students are capable)? How much mileage can you get out of, "What's your favorite...?" anyway? |
You're bending the issue into something that it's not, and thus setting up a straw man to knock down.
No one is trying to stop you from singing Christmas carols, having Easter egg hunts, or reading "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" in class.
What some people are against is this kind of exploitation of the vulnerable:
| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
As I've mentioned before, when my sister was young, a Christian group tried to convince her that the rest of her family was evil, hated her, and was going to hell. It gave her some serious emotional problems which she's still dealing with today, almost 20 years on. Luckily she didn't get tricked into being baptised. Anyone who wants your soul so bad that they'd try to break apart your family is messed in the head.
My boss' kids got brainwashed in school. Now they won't even go hiking anymore because there are too many Buddhist temples. My boss is an atheist and is understandably pissed. |
You can discuss morality in the classroom. Many text books have discussion questions like, "If you found a wallet with $500 in it on the sidewalk, what would you do?"
And if you say, "I'd give the wallet, and all of its money, back to the owner because I believe in 'The Ten Commandments'," then that's fine, too.
It would not be OK teach or imply that Christianity has some kind of monopoly on morality.
And I hope that you don't take a page out of FiveEagles' playbook and start complaining that you're being harassed because you're a Christian ("I'm being persecuted by evil-doers [atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, Muslims, and whatever other assorted bogeymen live inside your head] because of my righteousness!"). |
I doubt that any teacher is going to be able to put that kind of pressure on students unless they hook them into extra-curricular activities with religious groups - and he can do that without ever mentioning religion during a lesson. I think that a teacher using his influence to target particular students might be more dangerous.
A teacher at my school district's English camp used to teach my middle school students Bible camp and Sunday school songs. I don't know if she put much pressure on them but I do know that she was quite involved in a church in my town. I didn't really have a problem with what she was doing. She had some mental health problems I was concerned about but I didn't see the harm in her treating her lessons like an English Sunday school class, if that's what she was doing. As long as the kids were still learning English I don't think it will do any harm. |
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Moldy Rutabaga
Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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The point I was suggesting is that if an ethical or moral issue comes up in class, whatever answer the teacher suggests is going to promote his or her religious or non-religious outlook. This idea that if I say 'I think something is good or bad because I'm a Christian' is wrong-- but if I say 'it's right or wrong and there's no answer because only your personal opinion counts', then it's okay-- well, both are promoting a viewpoint, and there's no two ways around it.
The answer I again say is that morality is a delicate issue in the classroom, and I think the best solution is not to say religion cannot be discussed, but to be as non-pushy as possible about one's personal preference, whatever it is. To me this is fair.
Ken:> |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Moldy Rutabaga wrote: |
The point I was suggesting is that if an ethical or moral issue comes up in class, whatever answer the teacher suggests is going to promote his or her religious or non-religious outlook. This idea that if I say 'I think something is good or bad because I'm a Christian' is wrong-- but if I say 'it's right or wrong and there's no answer because only your personal opinion counts', then it's okay-- well, both are promoting a viewpoint, and there's no two ways around it.
The answer I again say is that morality is a delicate issue in the classroom, and I think the best solution is not to say religion cannot be discussed, but to be as non-pushy as possible about one's personal preference, whatever it is. To me this is fair.
Ken:> |
I doubt that discussions about serious moral issues will come up for most of us, but I see nothing wrong with a teacher explaining why he / she believes something in particular. If, for instance, a teacher believes that abortion is wrong because he's a Christian, what's the harm in explaining that?
What's lots of fun is telling a Christian Korean teacher that you're not going to lie on a report card because you're a Christian. I got the chance to do that a few times when I taught hogwan. |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Why did Fiveeagles ditch out on this thread? |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Qinella wrote: |
| Why did Fiveeagles ditch out on this thread? |
I think he is use to people just making fun of him, and he can then easily attack back without ever answering anything he doesn't want to. Unfortunately, everyone now is posting on questions, no attacks. And even worse, the questions are logical and would probably make him have to think. I don't blame him for jetting. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| Qinella wrote: |
| Why did Fiveeagles ditch out on this thread? |
I think he is use to people just making fun of him, and he can then easily attack back without ever answering anything he doesn't want to. Unfortunately, everyone now is posting on questions, no attacks. And even worse, the questions are logical and would probably make him have to think. I don't blame him for jetting. |
So true - he's just like my (Christian) mother. Persecution is lovely but difficult questions are just unbearable. |
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