|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
posco's trumpet
Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Location: Beneath the Underdog
|
 Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2003 10:10 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
Last edited by posco's trumpet on Sat Dec 06, 2003 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2003 12:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
On the Other Hand.
I have told many people in this town similar things. I have no time for the morons that demonstrate against the US. If it wasn't for the US then these idiots wouldn't even have the right to demonstrate at all. I know what happened in 1980 in Kwangju. Tragic, but that doesn't change my opinion. I have been here 2 years BTW. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2003 12:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bignate wrote: |
| You can doubt it all you want, that is the point of the debate, and technically all the presidents were elected, but I guess, you mean "properly" as through open elections - then there would have been 4 - Syng-man Rhee, Park Chung Hee, Roh Tae Woo, and Kim Young Sam. |
Syng-man Rhee was not elected, Park Chung Hee was not elected -- Rhee was appointed and Park came to power in a coup and remained in power by having the elections fixed. An argument could be made either way for Roh Tae Woo.
| bignate wrote: |
| Then the Beaver wrote: |
| And just to give you something else to debate, I'd bet if you polled North Koreans they'd say the Kim Il Sung is the best leader ever in any country. . . |
I know that South Koreans and North Koreans are the same people  but does Kim Il Sung's popularity in North Korea have anything to do with the popularity of a South Korean president? But it would have been a good point, if we were discussing Kim Il Sung. |
It's an example which points out that the popularity of a person can have little to do with the quality of the person.
You are right, there is little evidence showing Park himself to be corrupt. There's evidence for political corruption, and he was the head of the government so you I guess we are both free to draw our own conclusions.
| Quote: |
| Yes, since he was able to see how hard the president worked and how the government worked first hand, I think he would have a bit of a skew on the whole issue. He is a very frugal and honest man in his own right, and he was there through the whole regime: thus I really listen to what he has to say. |
Earlier you mentioned that my example of Kim Il Sung wasn't relevant (which it was), but in your intended vein, who the hell cares if your father in law is frugal and honest? What does that have to do with Park?
I would love to listen to what he has to say, but I doubt he'd be any more accurate than anybody else. In any case, if working closely with Park allowed a person to be a good judge of the ex-dictator, then I'd have to go with Kim Jae Gyu. He doubtless knew Park better than your father-in-law. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
minjokmanseh
Joined: 14 May 2003
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2003 3:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
Howdy there Posco's Trumpet,
| minjokmanseh wrote: |
The fallacy of Korea's TERMINAL UNIQUENESS... Germans knew plenty about starvation, bud. Would you prefer to use postwar Japan as the basis of comparison? How about Botswana? Over 40 years, it's risen from one of the poorest nations to become one of the richest and most stable in Africa--all under democratic governments.
|
Yes why don't you go ahead and "use Japan as the basis of comparison"? Neither Germany nor Japan really compare with the situation in Korea, pre- OR post-war other than on an extremely superficial level.
Actually I'm rather curious to see what you think are the relevant bases for comparison. Please go ahead and educate us what you think are different as well.
Please also tell us about what you know about "Boritgogae". This is quite pivotal. 
| Quote: |
It would, of course, be hard to really sort it all out. Comparing data across years, factoring out US aid, etc. etc., but the point remains. Park may (or may not) have been responsible for a few percentage points of additional growth. It's not logical to compare his 9.7% growth rate against, say, a deflationary economy. The likely difference (whatever the actual figure is) is overrated and overstated, and that difference does not (in my mind) justify the existence of a fascist regime.
|
You're completely missing the point. My point was that Park's accomplishments include FAR more than your "4.2% growth of the economy". His accomplishments were, whether you're fond of his human rights record or whatever else, simply mind-boggling. I'd be curious to know your take on the following site:
http://www.parkchunghee.or.kr/search.html
GREAT! What have you read to come up with your "informed opinion"?
Oh I'm nowhere near being shocked that "there're plenty of Koreans who are critical of Park". Nor was I insinuating that Koreans are all fond of him. He was a controversial and complex figure who was in power during extremely chaotic eras.
| Quote: |
In any case, you know as well as I do that the vast majority of Korean scholarship is crap--the relevant literature in Korean is almost certainly not worth reading (even if I could read it*).
|
This remark baffles me in its naivete. Good job.
| Quote: |
Archives might be worth reading, but there is no national archive in Korea. The NIS probably has some interesting stuff on record, but since there's no FOIA here, we'll never know exactly what's in the the KCIA's closet.
|
Well feel free to visit the link above.
| Quote: |
*Why do you assume I could't read it?
Is it because no true Korean would ever utter such heresies? If that is your reasoning, COUNT ME IN!
Is it because you suffer from the mistaken belief that all of the (already suspicious) Korean literature defends Park?
|
I didn't assume that you couldn't read the relevant Korean literature. In fact, from the way you're inimitably condescending, I kinda assumed that you could and wanted to induce your oh-so-enlightened take on the literature that you apparently have read.
I don't know what a "true Korean" is. Enlighten me.
Again, I never assumed/claimed that "all of the Korean literature defends Park". I'm actually quite aware that they don't.
| Quote: |
**by the way, can you / have you read extensively from the Korean literature on PCH, or are you just blowing wind?
|
Read the archive I provided you with above. If you're really interested, I'll send you some titles that extensively discuss Park's accomplishments OTHER THAN your "4.2%".
By the way, I have no interest in "defending Park". He had his share of failings. I simply think that your steadfast belief that "4.2%" represents the entirety of Park's accomplishments pretty naive and that his regime was "fascist" extremely simplistic.
The "Posco" in your very own log-in name is made of the awe-inspiring legend that Park Chung Hee and Park Tae Jun created together. Let me know what you think about it when you find out.
| Quote: |
The grammatical problems in your last sentence (see below) suggest you may not be a native speaker of English. If so, I congratulate you on your writing skills. Most of the time, you write pretty well. Too bad the thinking behind the writing is riddled with assumptions and informal fallacies.
|
Not everyone on this board has the time to do spell-check nor do they take it so seriously. Chill dude, this ain't no multilateral summit meeting of the greatest minds of the planet, which you seem to fancy yourself to be. This is "Dave's ESL Cafe". Apply your patronizing assumptions and pretentiousness to the kindergarten kids you teach.
The naivete in your arguments suggests THAT you may not be a true intellectual. If so, I congratulate you on your pseudo-intellectualizing skills. Most of the time, you pretend pretty well. Too bad the thinking behind the pretense is riddled with condesensions and pseudo-intellectualism. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lpcool
Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Location: Seoul, Korea
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2003 4:03 am Post subject: Re: Who paid the piper? |
|
|
| posco's trumpet wrote: |
I admit that for the moment, my mind is closed to the idea that Park could be anything other than a nasty piece of work, and to the idea that authoritarianism is necessary for growth. I just don't see the evidence.
|
Do you have an alternative? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cthulhu
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2003 4:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
The Beaver wrote:
| Quote: |
I know that South Koreans and North Koreans are the same people but does Kim Il Sung's popularity in North Korea have anything to do with the popularity of a South Korean president? But it would have been a good point, if we were discussing Kim Il Sung.
It's an example which points out that the popularity of a person can have little to do with the quality of the person. |
But who is better to judge the quality? The Koreans who lived under these guys or foreigners who've only experienced Western democracies in their lives and are commenting years later on a nation they've only begun to understand? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2003 4:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Cthulhu wrote: |
| But who is better to judge the quality? The Koreans who lived under these guys or foreigners who've only experienced Western democracies in their lives and are commenting years later on a nation they've only begun to understand? |
The idea behind that has always been interesting to me (this will be a bit of a tangent from the thread but who cares?).
The person who has experienced something firsthand is generally the obvious choice to be the "expert." On the other hand, people who look at something outside of their experiences can often look with a fresh eye and see things that others don't.
For example, a writer employs a proofreader to catch obvious inconsistencies in the writing, which the writer him/herself can't see because s/he is unable to step away to look at it from a larger perspective. Conversely, the proofreader doesn't always see what the writer was attempting and can't make connections.
Looking at another country or culture or subculture or whatever is similar to the above example. In most cases people who have experienced the same thing and have been in the same situation have different ideas. As to the topic at hand, I know people who lived under Park and think he was okay and others who hate him -- even people with the same experience don't have conformity of opinion. I think, therefore, that my cultural background has little bearing on the validity of my opinion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2003 5:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Poscostrumpet wrote: |
Nate:
Thirty points of poverty reduction is laudable. The electrification of the countryside and other utilities are important and valuable. I just am not convinced that either Park or authoritarian government were necessary factors in those improvements.
It's a bit late to bring it up, but I also wonder how the rate of poverty reduction compares with the rate of increase in the wealth of Korea's top 10% over the same period.
We evidently have very different interpretations of what the facts are, what they mean, and how they have affected Korea. I'm not going to pursue this any further. Neither of us is going to convince the other.
You seem to view me as some kind wacked-out intellectual lightweight. Perhaps so. I admit that for the moment, my mind is closed to the idea that Park could be anything other than a nasty piece of work, and to the idea that authoritarianism is necessary for growth. I just don't see the evidence. |
I think that 30 percentage points are not laudable, as it accounted for approximately seven million people, however like you said I don't think we will ever convince each other. I agree that we both are set in how we view, President Park, However, I don't have any view of you other than someone who is interesting and challenging to debate with.
This is just one particular case where I believe that authoritarian rule was a neccessary "evil" for the advancement and stability of the nation at that specific and very critical time. A democracy as we view it now, would not have stabilized the society, but rather forced it into chaos, and possibly another war.
Good show! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
billbile
Joined: 10 Apr 2003
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2003 5:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
Whether or not you appreciate Park Chung Hee relates usually to your age, but also where you come from. Daeguvians (Park and Chun were both Daegu natives) over 30 usually can't praise him enough. (people under 30 either don't know or care about politics)
I rate Park both good and bad in equal measure; I'm definitely more ambivilent about him than I am Chun. Chun WAS inordinately evil and corrupt, and did nothing for Korea. And whats more he's still alive (72), he still refuses to hand over all the money, millions upon billions, that he stole and he is still being protected by people inside the system. A horrible, horrible person, with a face like a pig might I add (needlessly, I know), and even Daegu citizens have a hard time backing him up. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2003 5:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| billbile wrote: |
| Chun WAS inordinately evil and corrupt, and did nothing for Korea. And whats more he's still alive (72), he still refuses to hand over all the money, millions upon billions, that he stole and he is still |
He's actually asking the government for money nowadays. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
posco's trumpet
Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Location: Beneath the Underdog
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2003 5:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
Last edited by posco's trumpet on Sat Dec 06, 2003 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
anae
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: cowtown
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2003 5:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Whether or not you appreciate Park Chung Hee relates usually to your age, but also where you come from. Daeguvians (Park and Chun were both Daegu natives) over 30 usually can't praise him enough. (people under 30 either don't know or care about politics) |
I don't know about Daegu - never lived on that side of the country.
I was wondering about the feelings the 386 generation else where (at the time in their 30s, went to university in the 80s and wer born in the 60s) who were the ones who led the charge to end dictatorship in the late 80s. I would maybe extend this generation just a tad into those born in the early 70s who were also involved in the later stages.
Any thoughts? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cthulhu
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2003 6:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
The Beaver wrote:
| Quote: |
| Looking at another country or culture or subculture or whatever is similar to the above example. In most cases people who have experienced the same thing and have been in the same situation have different ideas. As to the topic at hand, I know people who lived under Park and think he was okay and others who hate him -- even people with the same experience don't have conformity of opinion. I think, therefore, that my cultural background has little bearing on the validity of my opinion. |
Interesting comments--well said. There is something to be said for examining things from the outside. However, I think that cultural background isn't the problem in this case so much as Western expectations are. We tend to project our own beliefs on a value system that doesn't necessarily have the same opinion about human rights, individualism or what constitutes a good or bad society as our Western system does. Even civil rights was a new concept in America in the 50's, and didn't go down so well in the South. Asia is still grappling with the issue even today. Even the concept of democracy is not demonstrably a "best" system, only one that we (as members of a democratic society) believe to be the best one. I'm not defending dictators, simply pointing out the subjectivity in everyone's viewpoint. We judge things by our own standards--it's inescapable. If someone says he is "objective" he is selling something.
I think a Korean who has experienced both dictatorship under Park and democracy under Noh (and the two Kims before him) would have a better idea as to which is better than we would, us having experienced only Western liberal democracies. This is not always the case--not all individuals can step back and attempt to be rational, politics being what it is--but he does have more to go on that we do. We have to go with the cards we are dealt... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2003 6:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
| the beaver wrote: |
| Syng-man Rhee was not elected, Park Chung Hee was not elected -- Rhee was appointed and Park came to power in a coup and remained in power by having the elections fixed. |
Look, I am not going to argue about the elections after I already gave you the proof - also:
Syngman Rhee ran for president clearing 71% of the vote in the 1954 general elections - this may not have been so representative, since the oposition was very weak and people would not vote for them.
Park ran for re-election in 1967- a year in which people began to see the warrants of his methods, and he won in a fair election - though the DRP was by far the most affluent of the parties.
But regardless of who was elected, he still is one of the most popular of the past rulers - he laid the framework, and yes he cleared the forest - and that is regretable, but it was also, I believe the only way that the country could have come out of the state it was in.
| The beaver wrote: |
| It's an example which points out that the popularity of a person can have little to do with the quality of the person. |
Yes, in a brainwashed country that has only known two leaders in their history - it is called the "Cult of Personality" and though President Park did rule with authoritarian measures at times - there is no such Cult in South Korea - unless you count the "The Cult of Kim-chee". 
| Quote: |
Earlier you mentioned that my example of Kim Il Sung wasn't relevant (which it was), but in your intended vein, who the hell cares if your father in law is frugal and honest? What does that have to do with Park?
I would love to listen to what he has to say, but I doubt he'd be any more accurate than anybody else. In any case, if working closely with Park allowed a person to be a good judge of the ex-dictator, then I'd have to go with Kim Jae Gyu. He doubtless knew Park better than your father-in-law. |
I guess you are right, I just feel that so many people rely on what they read in books and on the internet, that they have no idea who the man actually was.
Take my points as they are, just a personal view of who the President was and what he himself was all about, and the fact that: If he was corrupt, then would he not have lived a more affluent and corrupt lifestyle?
As for Kim Chae Gyu, taking the side of an assassin, well, that is your perogative, and a grissly one at that. The problem with this is that it was never really understood why he shot President Park, some feel that it was because the President wanted to reduce his authoritarian rule, some say the opposite was true, some say that it was because Kim was going to be dismissed from his position, Kim never liked Cha Chi-ch'ol Park's body gaurd and that he shot him in a moment of anger and them Park in a spontaneous moment of indecision.
Kim himself (of course) said he did it out of concern for democracy and to end the yushin system, although there are doubts to that.
Another theory is that due to the increased animosity between Park and the American government over the withdrawl of troops and Park's human rights indescretions, that this was a US supported and planned hit. Although the US denies this they feel that Kim may have misinterepreted their criticism (he was a liason to US government visitors to the ROK) of Park as a green light for the killing and subsequent support thereafter.
Still another is that, since Park's assassination took place exactly to the day(October 26), 70 years after An Chung-gun assassinated Ito Hirobumi, the Japanese resident general of Korea during the initial stages of their occupation of the peninsula - that Kim did this on orders from Pyonyang - this is only speculation though.
Also of note when talking about Kim Chae-Gyu, is that immediately after he assassinated Park he went directly to the Army Chief of staff to try and persuade him to join the KCIA and declare martial law (never telling him that he had killed Park). So, was it an assassination to help democracy, or one to help gain power himself? Either way do you condone assassination as a justified means to an ends?
Anyways - Korea at that time was a dangerous and very unstable place, the motivations and aspirations of people were intersecting all the time, and who can really tell what was righteous and what was not. Everyone has their own ideas of President Park, I support him, based partly on a personal interest and primarily on the good that he did.
His methods were extreme and brutal, but as a previous poster put it was there any other way? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2003 7:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
interesting to see what a reaction Park Chung-Hee has created on this board. Either like him or you don't, not much middle ground  ., at least that's the way it seems.
Personally I think he did an impressive job. Just look at the progress Korea made during that time. Sure, I'm being simplistic here and not using "critical" thought with this statement, just an opinion.
Comparing him to stalin and hitler is dumb; they're apples and oranges. A more fair comparison would be Chiang Kai-Shek or the president of Singapore all those years (blocking on his name). I think Park would stand up well to Chiang, not so well to Singapore's former leader. On the other hand, Park had the DPRK to contend with while Singapore didn't have that type of security issue. I should note I know very little about Taiwan's history, just basing it on its present economic standing.
Anyway, just my 2 cents. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
