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dbee
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Location: korea
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 Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:38 am Post subject: |
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... yes, general Israeli opinion is militarised beyond belief. Most Israeli's consider a Jewish life to be worth 1000 arab lives. In most cases, that statement would be a wild generalization, but in Israel's case - I believe it to be the truth.
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Israel is far more democratic than its enemies. Yes or no.
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... I don't believe in democracy by stages. IMO you either accept common human rights values, the freedom to vote and to freedom of movement, or you don't. You don't get points for going through the motions and being 'nearly democratic'.
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Isreal doesn't have a Veto on the security council and the most of the resolutions the US Vetos it does cause they refuse to mention the other side.
Show US some UN resoluitons against Hamas.
How many resolutions against North Korea?
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... obviously by veto, I meant veto by proxy. There are tons of resolutions against Hamas and against Hezzbollah. But you can't expect the arabs to take the security council seriously, when it's a one-way system. Israel should be censured when Israel messes up, the arabs should be censured when the arabs mess up. That's what the council is supposed to be for in the first place. In it's current form, Security Council resolutions aren't worth the paper that they're written on. Simply because they are just an extension of the Zionist agenda.
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And Israel hasn't nuked anyone , and there would be a case against it having them if its enemies gave up their war but they won't cause they can't accept those different from them.
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... granted, the arabs perhaps aren't the easiest of peoples to live with. But Israel goes way beyond, simply not itself any favors. The Israelis are as much, if not more to blame in a lot of cases.
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Sharon is out of power , and a far more moderate party is running the nation.
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... hmmm ... only in Israel could a government that blows up Lebanon over two soldiers be called 'moderate'.
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Saddam gasses Kurds, Assad destroyed a city in two weeks. Khomeni killed 30,000 in a politcal crackdown in 1989. Iran beats and executes homosexuals. They kill Bahis. Anyone who leaves the faith or try to convert someone to another is dead.
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... yes, but Muslims killing Muslims is different to Israelis killing Muslims. Same goes for all peoples, that's fact - deal with it.
And if we are talking about mass-extermination of civilian populations in the mid-east. I think perhaps we shouldn't leave out the falujah debacle. Something which hasn't had much press coverage, but was actually a huge war crime. The marines turned back masses of civilians trying to leave the city before the battle, and then basically set up the whole city as a 'kill zone' - shooting anything that was alive.
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Look at their enemies and look at how they treat their minorities.
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... You're trying to turn the tables again. the point you seem to be trying to make is that Israeli atrocities are OK, because they're not 'any worse' than arab attrocities.
Israel is either a modern democratic, peace loving nation which respects the human rights of others, but is sometimes forced to respond to others aggression. Or Israel isn't any worse than the other vile regimes that you've highlighted because Israel doesn't outdo them in atrocities ? |
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TheLeek
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:42 am Post subject: |
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This is a little of topic but does go back to Mithridates original post. I remember watching Oliver Stone's short film on Fidel Castro ("Commandante") and it featured a short clip of Americans studying Medicine in Cuba for free.
Hats off to Mithridates for a great article and even got me thinking of trying to apply!! Would be a tough but a great experience! |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| TheLeek wrote: |
This is a little of topic but does go back to Mithridates original post. I remember watching Oliver Stone's short film on Fidel Castro ("Commandante") and it featured a short clip of Americans studying Medicine in Cuba for free.
Hats off to Mithridates for a great article and even got me thinking of trying to apply!! Would be a tough but a great experience! |
No problem. I liked the article because that's definitely something I would do if I were interested in medicine (which I'm not). There was one program here that a professor told me I should do which involved studying Confucian texts for a few years in a place near Daejeon and memorizing them all but that's not quite where my heart is either, but the principle was really good in that you just go to the place with about ten other students, live there and pay almost nothing and study every day until you're done. I'm a big fan of that sort of education, and even though I voted conservative in Canada the only time I was there to vote, I think all education should be absolutely free. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| ... yes, general Israeli opinion is militarised beyond belief. Most Israeli's consider a Jewish life to be worth 1000 arab lives. In most cases, that statement would be a wild generalization, but in Israel's case - I believe it to be the truth. |
You have no evidence for that. But jee whiz for blame Israel for hating their enemies
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| ... I don't believe in democracy by stages. IMO you either accept common human rights values, the freedom to vote and to freedom of movement, or you don't. You don't get points for going through the motions and being 'nearly democratic'. |
Well there are lots of nations who are less than perfect. During the cold war South Korea wasn't but it was better than N K and Israel is dealing with more than one NKorea.
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| ... obviously by veto, I meant veto by proxy. There are tons of resolutions against Hamas and against Hezzbollah. But you can't expect the arabs to take the security council seriously, when it's a one-way system. Israel should be censured when Israel messes up, the arabs should be censured when the arabs mess up. That's what the council is supposed to be for in the first place. In it's current form, Security Council resolutions aren't worth the paper that they're written on. Simply because they are just an extension of the Zionist agenda. |
show us some UN resolutions against Hamas . There are more resolutons against Israel than all the arab states put together.
the Security often doesn't censor Israels enemies.
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U.S. Vetoes U.N. Resolution Condemning Killing of Hamas Leader Yassin
Thursday , March 25, 2004
Associated Press
UNITED NATIONS � The United States vetoed a U.N. Security Council resolution Thursday condemning Israel's assassination of a Hamas (search) leader, calling the measure "one-sided" and saying it ignored the group's bloody record of terrorism.
The United States had demanded that the resolution on the death of Ahmed Yassin (search) include a mention of attacks by Hamas and other militant groups. Algeria (search), the resolution's sponsor, had resisted identifying the groups by name or citing specific attacks.
"This Security Council does nothing to contribute to a peaceful settlement when it condemns one party's actions and turns a blind eye to everything else occurring in the region," U.S. Ambassador John Negroponte said before the vote that came after days of bitter debate.
The vote was 11 countries in favor, three countries abstaining, and one country against -- the United States.
Yassin, the spiritual leader of Hamas, was killed in a missile strike Monday morning in the Gaza Strip (search). He is the highest-ranking militant to die in a series of Israeli assassinations.
Hamas has claimed responsibility for dozens of bombings and shootings of Israelis during 31/2 years of violence. Israel (search) says it is weakening Hamas by targeting its leaders, but critics say killing suspects without arresting or trying them violates international law and breeds resentment among Palestinians.
"Israeli policies are not part of the battle against international terrorism; it's part of the problem of creating terrorism," said Nasser al-Kidwa, the Palestinian representative.
Negroponte said the United States, too, was "deeply troubled" by the killing of Yassin.
"Israel's action has escalated tensions in Gaza and the region, and could set back our effort to resume progress towards peace," he said.
He said the United States could not support the resolution because it failed to mention recent attacks by Hamas, including a homicide bombing in Ashdod that killed 10 Israelis last week. The document also limited its condemnation to violence in the Palestinian territories, omitting attacks in Israel.
"The council should be focused on ways to advance the goal of two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security," Negroponte said. "The one-sided resolution before the Council does not advance that goal."
Israeli Ambassador Dan Gillerman accused the Palestinian Authority of siding with Yassin.
"The Security Council ... would have committed an unforgivable act of hypocrisy had it come to the defense of a man whose life's work was the eradication of peace, a man who was nothing less than a mass murderer," Gillerman said.
On Wednesday, the U.N. Human Rights Commission in Geneva voted 31-2 to condemn Israel for Yassin's death, but the body has no power to punish countries. A resolution by the Security Council would have carried more international weight.
The 11 Security Council members who voted for the measure on Thursday were: China, Russia, France, The Philippines, Angola, Chile, Pakistan, Spain, Algeria, Benin and Brazil.
Britain, Germany and Romania abstained from the vote.
The Algerian delegation said it might take the resolution to the full, 191-nation U.N. General Assembly. That body overwhelmingly sides with the Palestinians in such issues, but lacks the prestige of the Security Council.
Gillerman criticized "those council members who were recently victims of horrendous terror" for casting votes in favor of the measure. It was an apparent reference to Spain, where bombings in Madrid killed 190 people on March 11; and Russia, where a Moscow subway attack killed 41 on Feb. 6.
"If you knew before the bloody massacre of your citizens took place who was going to carry that horrendous act out, would you have sat still and let it happen?" Gillerman asked.
The vetoed resolution condemned Yassin's death and called for a "complete cessation of extrajudicial executions."
It also condemned "all terrorist attacks against any civilians as well as all acts of violence and destruction."
However, it did not mention any militant groups by name -- a traditional U.S. demand.
A U.S. draft proposal would have deleted all condemnation of "extrajudicial executions." That issue is a touchy one for the Americans, because the United States has marked suspected terrorists for death in the past.
In perhaps the most dramatic U.S. assassination, a missile fired by a CIA-operated Predator drone killed Al Qaeda commander Qaed Salim Sinan al-Harethi in Yemen in November 2002.
Only five members of the Security Council -- the United States, Russia, China, Britain and France -- can veto the body's resolutions. Thursday's veto is the United States' 79th and the latest in a long string of vetoes regarding Israel.
The Soviet Union and Russia have cast the most Security Council vetoes over the years, 121. Britain has cast 32, France 18 and China, 5. |
http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,115242,00.html
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There is only one entire UN Division devoted to a single group of people: the United Nations Division for Palestinian Rights [11] (created in 1977).
The only UN day dedicated to a specific people is November 29, the annual UN Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People.
There is only one refugee agency dedicated to a single refugee situation: UNRWA (in operation since 1950).
One of the General Assembly six committees, "the Fourth Committee, routinely devotes 30% of its time to the condemnation of Israel."
"The General Assembly emergency sessions... began in 1956, and since then six of the ten emergency sessions ever held, have been about Israel. The 10th such session began in 1997 and has been reconvened 13 times. A million dead in Rwanda or two million dead in Sudan might have warranted one General Assembly emergency session."
"...the UN's primary human-rights body is the UN Human Rights Commission. 30% of the resolutions condemning specific states ever adopted over 40 years are directed at Israel." [12]
In August 2004, the United Nations Association of the United Kingdom (UNA-UK) published a report analyzing thirteen years of United Nations resolutions on the Arab-Israeli conflict. In light of the study�s conclusions, Malcolm Harper, speaking on behalf of the UNA-UK (of which he was director until recently), called for an examination into how, if at all, the lopsided resolutions contribute to the Middle East peace process. The 76-page report [13] makes the following principal findings:
The texts of UN General Assembly and Security Council resolutions are "often unbalanced in terms of the length of criticism and condemnation of Israeli actions in the Occupied Territories as against Palestinian actions such as suicide bombings."
The United Nations is "palpably more critical of Israeli policies and practices than it is of either Palestinian actions or the wider Arab world. However criticism is not necessarily the product of bias."
In resolutions of the UN General Assembly, "violence perpetrated against Israeli civilians, including the use of suicide bombers, is mentioned only a few times and then in only vague terms."
The report also stated "However, criticism is not necessarily a product of bias, and it is not the intention here to suggest that UNGA and UNSC reproaches of Israel stem from prejudice. From the perspective of the UN, Israel has repeatedly flouted fundamental UN tenets and ignored important decisions." |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_United_Nations
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| ... granted, the arabs perhaps aren't the easiest of peoples to live with. But Israel goes way beyond, simply not itself any favors. The Israelis are as much, if not more to blame in a lot of cases. |
How does Israel go to far?
[quote]... hmmm ... only in Israel could a government that blows up Lebanon over two soldiers be called 'moderate'.
And Hizzbollah is out to get Israel. They have been attacking Israel for a long time. and they are a force that Iran could and has deployed for use against Israel.
Hizzbollah and Iran are out to destroy Israel.
How did Hizzbollah get all those rockets? What are they for to deter Israel? Israel wouldn't attack If Hizzbollah wouldn't attack.
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... yes, but Muslims killing Muslims is different to Israelis killing Muslims. Same goes for all peoples, that's fact - deal with it.
And if we are talking about mass-extermination of civilian populations in the mid-east. I think perhaps we shouldn't leave out the falujah debacle. Something which hasn't had much press coverage, but was actually a huge war crime. The marines turned back masses of civilians trying to leave the city before the battle, and then basically set up the whole city as a 'kill zone' - shooting anything that was alive. |
The US did not use more force than other nations at war. And the insurgents were engaging in terror on a mass scale.
They don't have a right to speak for all Iraqis. They are supported by 20%. They were fighting cause they could not win at the ballot box and cause they would not accept independence either.
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| ... You're trying to turn the tables again. the point you seem to be trying to make is that Israeli atrocities are OK, because they're not 'any worse' than arab attrocities. |
No but why ought anyone select Israel over and over when there is/ has been much worse going on. Whe Israels enemies will settle for nothing less than destroying Israel.
Israel is at war with the west bank and Gaza , remember there would have been no more occupation any more if Arafat had taken Clintons offer.
Everyone demands withdrawal ok fair enough but then ask the Palestinian side to give up military struggle in exchange for that.
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| Israel is either a modern democratic, peace loving nation which respects the human rights of others, but is sometimes forced to respond to others aggression. Or Israel isn't any worse than the other vile regimes that you've highlighted because Israel doesn't outdo them in atrocities |
why does it have to be one or the other? Neither answer is sufficent.
At any reason there is no reason for selective criticism of Israel the way is occurs.
I mean this started as a Cuba thread and then turned into an anti Israel debate.
There is no problem with criticizing Israel but why select them on a Castro debate?
Futhermore if one demands changes from Israel then why not ask for some real changes in behavior from its enemies?
Since Israel was founded 40,000 Israelis have died in wars/ or from terror it is not all Israel's fault. |
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