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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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 Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject: Does Israel uses more force than Russia in Chechnya? |
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The reason I am asking is cause it seems like Israel is getting more criticism in just a short time over Lebanon that Russia did over Chechnya.
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| Civilian casualty estimates vary widely, but many say about 80,000 civilians - 40 percent of them children - died in the first Chechen war. Many more have been killed since the conflict exploded again in 1999. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya
Is this fair or does this say something about the UN and the international community?
Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't think they are comparable. It's easy to look at them both and say "fighting Islamic terrorists", but there are a lot of differences. The goals each side seeks, for starters. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
| I don't think they are comparable. It's easy to look at them both and say "fighting Islamic terrorists", but there are a lot of differences. The goals each side seeks, for starters. |
I think Israel is asking less that what Russia does. All they ask is that Hizzbollah give up their war.
I think that just makes everything appear even worse.
Of course the left wingers and the far right get more upset if Israel does something than if Iran or Russia does something and they demand far more severe punishment for Israel. I wonder why .
They won't answer this thread cause they can't explain themselves. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Well an answers. Not suprised in the least. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Well an answers. Not suprised in the least. |
I don't care about the Russians fighting the Chechens and I don't care about Jews fighting Muslims. I just oppose the U.S. taking sides. It's not our fight. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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Hizzbollah attacked the US.
What do you mean by taking sides?
Of couse the US can't afford to give Israel 3 billion a year. I will grant you that.
But anyway
When Intel has a factory in Israel is that taking sides?
If the US sees a one sided UN resolution should it not vote against it cause Hizzbollah and Iran and Al Qaeda will threaten to blow things up?
Israel ( GDP 100 Billion ) won't fall if the US doesn 't give them 3 billion a year. So Al Qaeda and Hizzbollah , Iran the Bathists and all the rest you can be sure will still be angry.
What then? |
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canuckistan
Mod Team
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| You can add China to that list |
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Most of thae 3 billion the US gives to Israel is more or less corporate welfare for arms manufactures. |
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soviet_man
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Of course the left wingers and the far right get more upset if Israel does something than if Iran or Russia does something and they demand far more severe punishment for Israel. I wonder why. They won't answer this thread cause they can't explain themselves. |
Joo,
Because most socialists / leftists realize two things:
1. Chechens can be integrated into Russia.
Most Chechens can speak, read and write in Russian, in addition to their own language (as opposed to Arabic). Many have been re-settled (or are willing to be re-settled) elsewhere in Russia and can be happily and fully integrated into Russian society.
2. Israel can't be integrated into the middle-east.
Socially, politically and economically Israel and its neighbours are unwilling to cooperate (or even tolerate) each other. How can an Israeli state of 6.3 million exist, when they are surrounded by 280 million Arabs (increasing to 410+ million Arabs by 2020 according to UN predictions). The Arab population explosion makes the demographics very much stacked against Israel. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:26 am Post subject: |
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Whatever.
Nevertheless the UN and the left wing and far right without a doubt have been inconsistant on this issue.
This begs the question why?
They pretend to be concerned on moral grounds when in fact there very likely is another reason their for criticism. They are not honest to admit the true reasons behind what they say. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:25 am Post subject: |
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Because most socialists / leftists realize two things:
1. Chechens can be integrated into Russia.
Most Chechens can speak, read and write in Russian, in addition to their own language (as opposed to Arabic). Many have been re-settled (or are willing to be re-settled) elsewhere in Russia and can be happily and fully integrated into Russian society.
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Soviet Man:
Are you saying that most leftists/socialists support Russian control of Chechnya? If so, can you present evidence to back up this claim?
And for your reading pleasure: Here's an artricle from New Left Review supporting Chechen independence.
http://newleftreview.org/A2533
The Socialist Worker's Party in Britain also supports self-determination for the Chechens.
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=1371
Not that these guys are the be-all-and-end-all of the Left. I'll be interested to see your proof that theirs is the minority position. |
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soviet_man
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:21 am Post subject: |
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| Are you saying that most leftists/socialists support Russian control of Chechnya? If so, can you present evidence to back up this claim? |
Yes.
Nearly all of the 110+ nation states in the non-aligned movement oppose Chechen independence.
The eleven CIS states also oppose it.
Nearly every single member of the current Duma opposes it.
Madness. I mean how "Left-wing" is it to support establishing four or five small, fundamentalist, non-secular, landlocked, breakaway republics presided over by groups of racist, militant, nationalistic warlords?
The SWP are a small, anti-Moscow, trotskyist, sect. (It mostly consists of teenagers and weed smokers - from wealthy, western backgrounds).
One minute they say that Chechens are oppressed - the next they suggest fencing all of the Chechen people into a tiny landlocked corner and then leaving it up to ethnic warlords to decide the rest. I mean - it makes precisely zero sense.
My view is that there is absolutely no reasons why Chechens and Russians can't live together. Chechens can keep their culture, language and religion. At the same time they can be fully integrated into Russian society and share their common language and economic development. That is not some Stalinist position, it is just commonsense. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| This begs the question why? |
Could it have anything to do with Uncle Sam??? the one which allows these things to pass without comment and then condem those other atrocities that are convenient?????? Talk about inconsistency. I won't bother to mention all the countries, names.....
Fact is Joo, Chechnya is horribly destitute and ruined. I don't care, nor should any other, to compare by numbers. What Russia has done there, and done to its own people, is abominable and indescribable. Same with Israel.
Countries get away with what they can when no threat is present. That threat being Uncle Sam which looks the other way (also China, Pakistan, Turkey, Columbia, Uzbekistan, Iraq, Zimbabwe, Sudan, etc and lets not forget Israel,) all take the same approach.
Why? Because the United States is a failed diplomatic and international mess.....it meddles and has no respect or authority. There is nothing holding the center together....
Roger Cohen had a great overview of this failed U.S. power in the weekend Herald. Specifically about Lebanon but in general about the world....called, "sacrificing Democracy to support an ally" which essentially is U.S. policy everywhere, about alliances and democracy is only a blowhorn...
DD |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:43 am Post subject: |
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Could it have anything to do with Uncle Sam??? the one which allows these things to pass without comment and then condem those other atrocities that are convenient?????? Talk about inconsistency. I won't bother to mention all the countries, names..... |
but the fact is that the US has spoken out on Russia and others. You won't bother to mention cause you don't know what you are talking about.
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| Fact is Joo, Chechnya is horribly destitute and ruined. I don't care, nor should any other, to compare by numbers. What Russia has done there, and done to its own people, is abominable and indescribable. Same with Israel. |
How so with Israel? They are under attack . There would be no occupation of Gaza or the West Bank if Arafat took Clintons' offer. Just as there would be no bombing of Lebanon if Hizzbollah gave up their war.
Israel got out of Gaza and they still suffer attacks.
They get out of Lebanon and they still suffer attacks.
Stop making excuses for war by Israel's enemies.
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| Countries get away with what they can when no threat is present. That threat being Uncle Sam which looks the other way (also China, Pakistan, Turkey, Columbia, Uzbekistan, Iraq, Zimbabwe, Sudan, etc and lets not forget Israel,) all take the same approach. |
the biggest human right violators anywhere are hostile to the US. I will show it if you request.
Also the US has spoken out many times , Indeed on the Sudan no nation any where has spoken out more than the US.
The US looks the other way at those nations. How so? Certainly not in Zimbabwe or the Sudan. As for Iraq it is nicer and more tolerant than it was under Saddam. Uzbekistan the US was kicked out of there for speaking against the government. You need a link?
I will support what I said about the Sudan , Zimbabwe or Uzbekistan upon request.
US has spoken out against all of them. None of them are a friend.
.S. calls for sanctions on Sudan
From CNN Senior U.N. Correspondent Richard Roth
Friday, July 23, 2004 Posted: 4:23 PM EDT (2023 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UNITED NATIONS (CNN) -- The United States is calling for U.N. sanctions against Sudan if the Khartoum government does not stop militia attacks in the Darfur region
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/africa/07/23/sudan.darfur.un/
As called for under existing United States sanctions, the Department of State and the Department of the Treasury continue to identify individuals who undermine Zimbabwe's democratic institutions as a part of this ongoing effort and in accordance with Executive Order 13288, the Department of Treasury's Office of Foreign Assets Control has designated seven businesses owned or controlled by such individuals as subject to the applicable United States sanctions. These entities include commercial farms seized by Information Minister Jonathan Moyo; Zimbabwe Defence Industries, a government-owned arms manufacturer; M&S Syndicate, a holding company owned by the ruling Zimbabwe African National Union-Patriotic Front; and two companies representing the interests of Zimbabwe Defence Forces General (retired) Vitalis Zvinavashe.
The United States?sanctions target only those responsible for Zimbabwe's political crisis and not ordinary citizens. They support regional and international efforts to convince Zimbabwe뭩 government to abandon political repression and engage in meaningful dialogue with the political opposition. Should Zimbabwe뭩 rulers continue to oppress its citizens and to resist forthright efforts toward resolving the country뭩 political crisis, we are prepared to impose additional targeted financial and travel sanctions on those undermining democracy in Zimbabwe.
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2004/30091.htm
Uzbek govt kicks out US army
31/07/2005 08:12 - (SA)
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| Washington - Uzbekistan has formally evicted the United States from a military base that has served as a hub for its combat operations in Afghanistan, the US state department confirmed on Saturday. |
(seperate article) below.
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| That logic collapsed, however, after the Andijan massacre. After calls from the United States and other countries for an independent investigation, Karimov retaliated. His government told the United States to quit K2 within six months. |
http://www.slate.com/id/2131875/
Listening to you is like listening to left wing cliche after left wing cliche.
Except that your Cliches are simply not accurate.
I will support what I said about the Sudan , Zimbabwe or Uzbekistan upon request.
US has spoken out against all of them. None of them are a friend.
Futhermore during the cold war the bad guys the US supported were usually opposed by bad guys who were just as bad. There is nothing wrong with supporting a dictator who is on your side if the opposition is just as cruel , just as undemocratic and their is no liberal democratic alternative.
The US was right to fight the cold war . You would have no job had the US not done so
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| Why? Because the United States is a failed diplomatic and international mess.....it meddles and has no respect or authority. There is nothing holding the center together.... |
The US is hated cause it is a hyperpower and it was before Bush came to office.
| Quote: |
| Roger Cohen had a great overview of this failed U.S. power in the weekend Herald. Specifically about Lebanon but in general about the world....called, "sacrificing Democracy to support an ally" which essentially is U.S. policy everywhere, about alliances and democracy is only a blowhorn... |
and how does that apply here? |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Quote:
Are you saying that most leftists/socialists support Russian control of Chechnya? If so, can you present evidence to back up this claim?
Yes.
Nearly all of the 110+ nation states in the non-aligned movement oppose Chechen independence.
The eleven CIS states also oppose it.
Nearly every single member of the current Duma opposes it.
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You know, you wonder why I don't take your claims to socialism seriously. Then you turn around and cite the non-aligend movement, which currently includes such pro-capitalist, authoritarian states as Saudi Arabia, Singapore, and Egypt, as being some sort of spokesman for what socialists believe. Oh, and thanks for drawing my attention to the Duma's opposition to Chechen independence. Golly, the Russian legislature coming out against an anti-Russian independence movement. I'm sure their poition was based on a close reading of The Critique Of The Gotha Program. |
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