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Korean Herald Article on Daves
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EFLtrainer



Joined: 04 May 2005

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:37 am    Post subject: Re: yes Reply with quote

Ilsanman wrote:
They take credit for other things, such as a metal printing press (just a copy from China, with a change of materials)


Actually it was metal moveable type, not a printing press in the sense of what was later developed. And, Korea did it first, China second. We don't know if there was a connection between the two or not at this time.
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cubanlord



Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:59 am    Post subject: Re: yes Reply with quote

EFLtrainer wrote:
Ilsanman wrote:
They take credit for other things, such as a metal printing press (just a copy from China, with a change of materials)


Actually it was metal moveable type, not a printing press in the sense of what was later developed. And, Korea did it first, China second. We don't know if there was a connection between the two or not at this time.


I am sure there is some connection considering Koreans are descendants of the Chinese and Mongolians.
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Ilsanman



Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:26 am    Post subject: Re: yes Reply with quote

I heard the Chinese invented a wooden one first, before the Koreans.

I will check it out and post the findings.



EFLtrainer wrote:
Ilsanman wrote:
They take credit for other things, such as a metal printing press (just a copy from China, with a change of materials)


Actually it was metal moveable type, not a printing press in the sense of what was later developed. And, Korea did it first, China second. We don't know if there was a connection between the two or not at this time.
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Kyrei



Joined: 22 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on things I have read over the years and documentaries I have narrated (and believe me I know that is a sketchy source at the very best), the metal moveable type printing press was based on wooden ones in China. The issue was getting a proper balance of lead in the ink to make it stick to the metal and not blotch or smear. The Koreans made it first. There was obvious collaboration as well as "corporate" espionage between the two countries to develop it, but in the end the Koreans won.

Now, why didn't they capitalise on that? Good question. Here is what I believe happened. The first metal moveable-type printing press produce a book of Buddhist documents in the late 1300s, shortly before the collapse of the Goryeo kingdom, within 20 years. When Goryeo fell, Buddhism and Buddhist temples, which were a source of highly corrupt power-mongering among the elite (not at all unlike the church of the Middle Ages) fell with it. The newly formed Joseon kingdom literally bathed in the blood of Buddhists, although the Buddhists survived, mostly by fully embracing the "Chogye" sect ("Chan" in Chinese and "Zen" in Japanese) which held itself to a much stronger monastic tradition and was therefore out of the hands of the ruling elite. The uniquely Korean form of "neo-Confucianism" came into play at the expense of the Buddhist hegemony. With it went the printing press and its wonders. Wood block prints were "commonplace" among the elite at this time, but the metal ones were not by any means, and fell to the wayside, only to be resurrected later.

To say that the Koreans invented a metal moveable type printing press first in the world is not without merit. They did not however capitalise on it as did those who worked the Gutenberg version. Religion was on their side, while it was against the Koreans here.

Keep in mind all ye nay-sayers that this is not a scholarly exposition on things Korean, simply a summary of what I have learned and believe about that situation.
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Privateer



Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gwangjuboy wrote:
Privateer wrote:
It's an irrefutable fact but also meaningless: the levels of economic and population growth and technological advancement in the latter half of the twentieth century are so much higher than those of practically any other period anywhere that comparisons are meaningless. If you want to judge the success of the Choseon regime then break it up by periods and compare it to other states of the same period, e.g. 17th century Choseon compared to 17th century England or Japan.

Are you also going to write off every other civilisation on the map that failed to make it as an imperial power in the latter 19th century? Doesn't leave many countries.



While you are correct in pointing out that economic growth in the last half of the twentieth century reached unparalled levels there are still probably less than fifteen countries which could be described as "developed." Korea is one of them. Most countries are wealthier now than they ever have been due to the accelerated growth in the last century but Korea's achievements in the last 50 years go beyond that. For the first time ever it can boast of significant power. A good analogy is football. For the first time ever Korea are in the premiership.


Ok that seems like a fair comparison. Looking at Joseon again, they're in a slump at the end of the 19th century, but in the 18th century and before they may not have been 'premier league', i.e. an imperial power, but they were still way ahead of most countries in the world so I'd say somewhere in the first division. Smile
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Privateer



Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:48 am    Post subject: Re: yes Reply with quote

cubanlord wrote:
EFLtrainer wrote:
Ilsanman wrote:
They take credit for other things, such as a metal printing press (just a copy from China, with a change of materials)


Actually it was metal moveable type, not a printing press in the sense of what was later developed. And, Korea did it first, China second. We don't know if there was a connection between the two or not at this time.


I am sure there is some connection considering Koreans are descendants of the Chinese and Mongolians.


First off inventions can still be made independently regardless of who is descended from whom, and secondly, the Koreans are not 'descendants of the Chinese and Mongolians, although they are relatives of the Mongolians, as any Korean will tell you.
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cubanlord



Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:05 am    Post subject: Re: yes Reply with quote

Privateer wrote:
cubanlord wrote:
EFLtrainer wrote:
Ilsanman wrote:
They take credit for other things, such as a metal printing press (just a copy from China, with a change of materials)


Actually it was metal moveable type, not a printing press in the sense of what was later developed. And, Korea did it first, China second. We don't know if there was a connection between the two or not at this time.


I am sure there is some connection considering Koreans are descendants of the Chinese and Mongolians.


First off inventions can still be made independently regardless of who is descended from whom, and secondly, the Koreans are not 'descendants of the Chinese and Mongolians, although they are relatives of the Mongolians, as any Korean will tell you.


hmmm.....so where did the Koreans original from? They just "popped" up one day and "poof" we have Koreans? Or were they originally Chinese or Mongolians or both that migrated south into the Pennisula?

Courtesy of Wikipedia:

Archeological evidence shows that hominins first inhabited the Korean Peninsula 700,000 years ago.[1] Some North Koreans claim it may have been inhabited for 1,000,000 years. [2] Tool-making artifacts from the Palaeolithic period (700,000 BC to 40,000 BC) have been found in present-day North Hamgyong, South P'yongan, Gyeonggi, and north and south Chungcheong Provinces. The people were cave dwellers and built homes, using fire for cooking food and warmth. They hunted, gathered and fished with stone tools.

The earliest known Korean pottery dates back to around 8000 BC or before, and evidence of Mesolithic Pit-Comb Ware culture or Yungimun Pottery (융기문토기) is found throughout the peninsula. An example of a Yungimun-era site is the Gosan-ni in Jeju-do. Jeulmun or Comb-pattern Pottery (즐문토기) is found after 7000 BC, and pottery with comb-patterns over the whole vessel is found concentrated at sites in West-central Korea between 3500-2000 BC, called the Jeulmun pottery period, when the [b]Korean peninsula had numerous settlements. Its pottery was similar to those of the Russian Maritime Province, Mongolia, and the Amur and Sungari River basins of Manchuria[2].
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Gwangjuboy



Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Privateer wrote:
Ok that seems like a fair comparison. Looking at Joseon again, they're in a slump at the end of the 19th century, but in the 18th century and before they may not have been 'premier league', i.e. an imperial power, but they were still way ahead of most countries in the world so I'd say somewhere in the first division. Smile



For three hundred years they probably yo-yoed between the first division and the second division. In the 19th century things went pear shaped and they plummeted to the conference. The Japanese bought the team and injected much needed funds into it for transfers but some of the fans resented Japanese involvement (Glazier at Utd). After a stormy period which saw the team split (the other half is now in the Dr Martin's league with Mali) the Americans came in with very big money (like Abramovich at Chelsea) and despite some resentment at the team's split amoungst the hardcore fans Korea achieved promotion to the premiership for the first ever time in its history.

Good analogy I think. Laughing
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Ilsanman



Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:54 pm    Post subject: Re: yes Reply with quote

Don't let a KOrean see that. They'll start telling us about their 1 million years of history.


cubanlord wrote:
Privateer wrote:
cubanlord wrote:
EFLtrainer wrote:
Ilsanman wrote:
They take credit for other things, such as a metal printing press (just a copy from China, with a change of materials)


Actually it was metal moveable type, not a printing press in the sense of what was later developed. And, Korea did it first, China second. We don't know if there was a connection between the two or not at this time.


I am sure there is some connection considering Koreans are descendants of the Chinese and Mongolians.


First off inventions can still be made independently regardless of who is descended from whom, and secondly, the Koreans are not 'descendants of the Chinese and Mongolians, although they are relatives of the Mongolians, as any Korean will tell you.


hmmm.....so where did the Koreans original from? They just "popped" up one day and "poof" we have Koreans? Or were they originally Chinese or Mongolians or both that migrated south into the Pennisula?

Courtesy of Wikipedia:

Archeological evidence shows that hominins first inhabited the Korean Peninsula 700,000 years ago.[1] Some North Koreans claim it may have been inhabited for 1,000,000 years. [2] Tool-making artifacts from the Palaeolithic period (700,000 BC to 40,000 BC) have been found in present-day North Hamgyong, South P'yongan, Gyeonggi, and north and south Chungcheong Provinces. The people were cave dwellers and built homes, using fire for cooking food and warmth. They hunted, gathered and fished with stone tools.

The earliest known Korean pottery dates back to around 8000 BC or before, and evidence of Mesolithic Pit-Comb Ware culture or Yungimun Pottery (융기문토기) is found throughout the peninsula. An example of a Yungimun-era site is the Gosan-ni in Jeju-do. Jeulmun or Comb-pattern Pottery (즐문토기) is found after 7000 BC, and pottery with comb-patterns over the whole vessel is found concentrated at sites in West-central Korea between 3500-2000 BC, called the Jeulmun pottery period, when the [b]Korean peninsula had numerous settlements. Its pottery was similar to those of the Russian Maritime Province, Mongolia, and the Amur and Sungari River basins of Manchuria[2].
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buymybook



Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Location: Telluride

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EFLtrainer wrote:
cubanlord wrote:
Actually, I think this is a great idea, and is a subject that I have wanted to tackle for some time.
However, to accomplish this we do need the input of English teachers out
there. Their experiences, opinions, suggestions. If possible, point the
finger at particular establishments with a proven poor track record so
we can confront them directly.
I would welcome your suggestions on the best way to initiate this. My
first thought was to post something on Dave's or perhaps our own message
boards, seeking input. Unfortunately, there seems to be a lot of
"negative energy" against The Korea Herald out there, and no matter what
I say or do, my motives are immediately questioned.
Thanks for your email, I appreciate it.
Best regards,
Chris Gelken
Associate Editor
The Korea Herald[/i][/b]


Let me see... an Associate Editor who can't figure out how to read the forums he was more than happy to let be trashed in an article for his newspaper? Isn't the "research" he's looking for all right here?

Shocked

Here's some for ya, AD: I've worked for 7 "companies" in Korea and have had to deal with illegal work conditions and/or failure to fulfill contractual obligations at five of them.

Hmmm....

And for the record, there is no known connection between the creation of moveable type (Was there also a printing press? I don't think so, but could be wrong.) in Korea and the later creation of it in China and Europe.

One would wonder why Koreans failed to take advantage of such an astonishing invention. Why did Korea not become the publishing capital of the world?

What we have here is pride in creating, then ignoring, one of the greatest advances in history.

I did the same thing with the concept of paintball. I kid you not.

Smile


I did the same thing with reality T.V., no kidding!
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dogbert



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:49 pm    Post subject: Re: yes Reply with quote

Ilsanman wrote:
Don't let a KOrean see that. They'll start telling us about their 1 million years of history.


There is no doubt in my mind that a Korean wrote it. Some of the ones with better English have been all over Wikipedia creating Korean glory.
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philipjames



Joined: 03 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Korea in the 'first division' of nations during the Joseon dynasty. Rolling Eyes Surely you jest. The 'first division' of nations were inventing telescopes, radio, telephones, developing scientific theories of life, building railways, inventing penecilin, etc.

Under no circumstances can Korea be considered a first division country at any point during the Chosun dynasty. It produced nothing of value for the world at large. First division nations were.

Jeosun in the first league of nations. What an absolute howl. Razz
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Yu_Bum_suk



Joined: 25 Dec 2004

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What Dave's 'article' is Mr Harrison referring to? By 'article' does he mean anonymous on-line rant? What a hopeless case.
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TonyD



Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Location: Ulsan

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yu_Bum_suk wrote:
What Dave's 'article' is Mr Harrison referring to? By 'article' does he mean anonymous on-line rant? What a hopeless case.


It was a pathetic article and deserved to be pillared from post-to post but it did raise a couple of topical issues that need to be discussed. Issues that were handled more competently, albeit in a sensational manner, by this week's Herald story.
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flotsam



Joined: 28 Mar 2006

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TonyD wrote:
Yu_Bum_suk wrote:
What Dave's 'article' is Mr Harrison referring to? By 'article' does he mean anonymous on-line rant? What a hopeless case.


It was a pathetic article and deserved to be pillared from post-to post but it did raise a couple of topical issues that need to be discussed. Issues that were handled more competently, albeit in a sensational manner, by this week's Herald story.


Don't take the bait.
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