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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Taking a look at the latest Haaretz article on the fighting - http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/749479.html - I just can't understand what Israel thinks is worth this kind of loss. If they occupy southern Lebanon again they can count on a never-ending guerrilla war of attrition. The alternative is Hezbollah being able to hold a gun to them on the northern border (albeit a BB-gun in relative terms). It seems Israel would prefer the former. I can't help but wonder if some gross miscalculations have happened or if Israel actually has no long-term strategy. It will be interesting to see how Lebanon's fight for it's existance continues. |
You can't understand that Israel is going to respond violently to a border raid that killed several of its soldiers and kidnapped 2 others?
What about the 200 rockets a day Hezbollah was firing into civilian areas?
Bah...pointless... |
Hezbollah only started firing so many rockets after Israel's airstrikes on Lebanese targets.
In response to a provacative raid Israel takes actions that lead to over 100 soldiers' deaths and 1,000+ Lebanese civilian deaths? Talk about cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. |
Yeah, I forgot who I was trying to reason with for a second. What I don't understand is how you don't denounce Hezbollah's act of terror, and how you blame Israel for responding to aggression.
What you and a lot of others don't understand is that this is existential struggle in the Middle East, and not playtime in kindergarten back in North America. The fact that you don't at least welcome Hezbollah's demise as the perpetrator in this cycle shows that returning you to kindergarten won't do any good. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
mumble mumble you're welcome mumble -George Orwell, as quoted by Igothisguitar
Hang on to that one too, it's bound to be worth something one day. |
Now you're putting words in my mouth ... again ... working ( not very hard obviously ) at twisting, mocking & convoluting.
Typical masonically-inspired obfuscation nonsense.
The quote it seems you're mocking reads as follows:
"In times of UNIVERSAL DECEIT, speaking the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George "i don't mumble" Orwell. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| R. S. Refugee wrote: |
| Bulsajo wrote: |
....when Hamas dug a tunnel from Gaza under the border into Israel and conducted a commando raid which resulted in the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier, and Hezbollah, afraid that Hamas was stealing all their thunder, decided to 'one up' them and conduct a simialr raid netting 2 more Israeli soldiers- what should Israel have done? ...
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That is a toughie, but I'll stick my neck out here and venture a reply. They should have done then -- before all the state terrorism and death and destruction that they've rained down on the people of Lebanon and the retaliatory missile terror experienced by the Israelis-- exactly what they are going to do now, and have done in the past in such situations -- negotiate a prisoner exchange.
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Israel will negotiate for the release of two soldiers whose capture by Hezbollah militants on July 12 sparked the offensive in Lebanon, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said Sunday.
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=74704 |
Was Hizzbollah going attack Israel again in the future? |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:44 am Post subject: |
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If History ( i.e. WW 1&2 ) teaches us anything, it is that the Zionists are once again seeking to draw the world into a larger middle-eastern blood-bath.
Think next stop: SYRIA & IRAN 
Christopher Jon Bjerknes suspects that the Zionists are now fooling Turkey into supporting the bombing of Lebanon by offering them support in their fight with Kurds 
http://www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmith-Bjerknes28July2006.mp3
France, Italy, Turkey Offer U.N. Troops
By ANGELA DOLAND, Associated Press Writer
Sat Aug 12, 3:45 PM ET
PARIS - France and Italy, along with predominantly Muslim Turkey and Malaysia, signaled willingness Saturday to send troops for a beefed-up U.N. peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon, but consultations are still needed to hammer out the force's makeup and mandate.
New Zealand and Ireland were among smaller nations saying they might contribute peacekeepers for the mission to bring calm after a month of fighting that has killed more than 800 people, displaced hundreds of thousands and caused widespread damage.
A day after the U.N. Security Council unanimously adopted a resolution seeking a "full cessation" of hostilities, governments worldwide urged Israel and Hezbollah to seize the opportunity. German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier called it a chance "that must not be wasted."
The resolution, drafted by France and the United States, authorizes 15,000 U.N. peacekeepers to help a similar number of Lebanese troops take control of southern Lebanon as Israeli forces withdraw from an area that is a longtime stronghold of the Islamic militants of Hezbollah.
Analysts said France would be well-suited to lead such a force, given its diplomatic success in acting as go-between in negotiations involving the United States and Lebanon.
As France had argued for, the resolution strengthens the existing U.N. force in southern Lebanon � UNIFIL, which now has 2,000 soldiers acting as observers and has been in place since 1978.
Washington has been concerned over UNIFIL's ineffectiveness in containing violence along the Israel-Lebanon frontier and it originally pressed for the deployment of a new international force separate from UNIFIL.
The strengthened U.N. force is to monitor a cease-fire, ensure humanitarian aid reaches civilians and back up the Lebanese army in asserting government control in the south, where Hezbollah has been virtually autonomous.
The resolution authorizes UNIFIL to use "all necessary action" to make sure "its area of operations is not utilized for hostile activities of any kind." Its troops could use force to ensure the movement of aid workers and protect civilians in imminent danger.
Further discussions are needed to pin down exactly when and under what conditions UNIFIL can use firepower. And the Security Council said UNIFIL's mandate setting out its roles might be "enhanced" in a later resolution.
French President Jacques Chirac said his country will "play a role in putting the new resolution into place, particularly in regards to the new UNIFIL."
France � which already participates in UNIFIL along with China, Ghana, India, Ireland, Italy, Poland and Ukraine � will determine how many more peacekeepers to send after evaluating the force's mandate, Chirac said.
His country is seen as a likely leader of the U.N. operation.
By leading a peacekeeping force with a large European presence, France could strengthen its own role in the Middle East, analysts say.
That could, in turn, benefit the European Union, and ensure France a greater role in carving out the bloc's foreign policy, said Barah Mikail of the Institute of International and Strategic Relations in Paris.
Given France's relations with Washington and its historic ties with the Arab world, "France seems the best-placed to lead this force," Mikhail said.
Italian Premier Romano Prodi and his foreign minister, Massimo D'Alema, confirmed Italy's willingness to take part. They said Italy will be involved in talks "in the next few days to determine the composition, articulation and mandate" of the force.
Predominantly Muslim nations also expressed willingness to provide peacekeepers.
Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul said his government would look "very favorably" toward sending peacekeepers, but only after a full cease-fire.
In Malaysia, Deputy Prime Minister Najib Razak said his country was preparing about 1,000 soldiers to take part in the mission once fighting stops.
Razak also said two of Malaysia's Muslim neighbors, Indonesia and Brunei, were prepared to participate, although there was no official comment from those governments. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:58 am Post subject: |
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http://www.iamthewitness.com
Great site 
Please everyone be sure to go to Igothisguitar's site. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
| Quote: |
Hezbollah only started firing so many rockets after Israel's airstrikes on Lebanese targets.
In response to a provacative raid Israel takes actions that lead to over 100 soldiers' deaths and 1,000+ Lebanese civilian deaths? Talk about cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. |
I've asked this question before of others but have yet to hear a response:
Yu Bum Suk- when Hamas dug a tunnel from Gaza under the border into Israel and conducted a commando raid which resulted in the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier, and Hezbollah, afraid that Hamas was stealing all their thunder, decided to 'one up' them and conduct a simialr raid netting 2 more Israeli soldiers- what should Israel have done?
What would have been the appropriate response?
And why?
Everyone who sides with Hezbollah, (as you clearly are doing- 'Oh, they only started firing rockets as a defensive measure') has not been able to come up with an answer to this question.
So, what's your answer?
Please remember that I do not condone the way Israel's miltary operation has been handled, it's been negligent, indiscrimant, inhumane, and worst of all ineffective, but I have no idea what they could have done in place of a military operation. |
The simple answer to this is stop expanding. If Israel wasn't expanding into the West Bank, hoarding most water resources for itself, and had built its apartheid wall along the 1967 borders it would be seen as much less of a threat by its neighbours. This would have saved it a great deal of grief down the road.
As for this incident, Israel could have launched a couple of commando raids against very select target to prove it still has the upper hand along its border with Lebanon, if saving face was so important. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
As for this incident, Israel could have launched a couple of commando raids against very select target to prove it still has the upper hand along its border with Lebanon, if saving face was so important. |
Call me crazy, but I don't think the Israelis thought saving face (your phrasing, not mine) was so important compared to stopping and preventing further attacks on its sovereign territory. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:44 am Post subject: ... |
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| Quote: |
| Call me crazy, but I don't think the Israelis thought saving face (your phrasing, not mine) was so important compared to stopping and preventing further attacks on its sovereign territory. |
So, this was a fair response to a kidnapping?
And, if this was the only response you can conceive of, then the whole situation's pretty much screwed, isn't it?
After all, to play the devil's advocate, you can't expect Hezbollah to "just walk away", can you?
I believe YBS means that other measured responses were possible. I'd tend to agree. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:16 am Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
I believe YBS means that other measured responses were possible. I'd tend to agree. |
But no one seems to be able articulate with any degree of accuracy or realism what these nebulous, mysterious "measured responses" are, so I remain skeptical.
I certainly agree with the obvious conclusion that Israel's actions have been- and this is the kindest description possible- hamfisted and indescriminate, and should probably be (and certainly is being) called a lot worse.
But this criticism is in terms of execution of strategy (which is full military engagement of Hezbollah), not the strategy itself. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| So, this was a fair response to a kidnapping? |
No, it is not.
On the other hand, I strongly suspect that had Tel Aviv not reacted to the kidnappings, as Hezbollah (and probably Syria and Iran) wanted, since we are talking about a classically executed provocation, the terrorists would have escalated the provocation until they did.
Also, Hezbollah hides and fires weapons and missiles from civilian-populated areas, deliberately drawing Tel Aviv's attention and fire, and then when Israel hits them there, they decry war crimes.
This is a clear pattern. It is a PR game to them.
On YBS, above: it is very clear to me that he is permanently inclined to interpret anything the United States or any of its allies might do most unfavorably, while, on the other hand, he enthusiastically accepts the moral goodness in anything that anyone opposed to the United States or any of its allies might say or do. This is because he despises the United States. And like many who despise the United States, some of his concerns are reasonable, but many of them exceed the bounds of reasonable criticism and are based on something else.
So, knowing that this will always be the result, what do you hope to accomplish by any discourse with him on foreign relations? |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| sundubuman wrote: |
You folks crack me up....put down the bong for a second and stash your conspiracy theories with your stash.
which reminds you of your grandparents generation for some strange reason... |
wtf????
| sundubuman wrote: |
| anyhow, this same country, Iran, is more or less openly pursuing weapons of mass destruction, including nuclear weapons, and only last month sent representatives to Pyongyang on the occasion of that lovely nation's launching of new missiles... |
and Israel and the US already have them....
| sundubuman wrote: |
| Oh yes, one more small thing, Iran's mad leader has vowed to destroy your country, as has Hezbollah and Hamas.... |
And Bush is busy teling the world how evil the leaders in Muslim countries and... well... any country that opposes him are... and ACTUALLY killing them....
| sundubuman wrote: |
| Meanwhile their proxy army has dug in with over 10,000 missiles aimed at any and all, and crossed your border, killed some of your soldiers while kidnapping others... |
While we dig in with our very real 5,000 warheads and very real army of over 500k....
| sundubuman wrote: |
| Humm, yes, definitely, Israel is invading a neighboring country for some other reason than national survival. Definitely. |
[quote="sundubuman"]Well, they did kidnap FIRST. And planned the invasion in advance... You should read up on Peak Oil... they've got very good reason to be in Southern Lebanon... but it may have nothing to do with Hezzbolah....
| sundubuman wrote: |
| Basically, as I see it, anybody who at this point does not wholeheartedly support Israel's war against Hezbollah basically is in favor of the destruction of the world's only Jewish state. |
That's because you're... shall we say.... less than genius. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| So, this was a fair response to a kidnapping? |
No, it is not.
On the other hand, I strongly suspect that had Tel Aviv not reacted to the kidnappings, as Hezbollah (and probably Syria and Iran) wanted, since we are talking about a classically executed provocation, the terrorists would have escalated the provocation until they did.
Also, Hezbollah hides and fires weapons and missiles from civilian-populated areas, deliberately drawing Tel Aviv's attention and fire, and then when Israel hits them there, they decry war crimes.
This is a clear pattern. It is a PR game to them.
///
So, knowing that this will always be the result, what do you hope to accomplish by any discourse with him on foreign relations? |
The fact that Hezzbolah's kidnappings came after Isreali kidnappings mean nothing, then? And the fact the invasion was pre-planned?
And your comments on ybs are your typical Dumbya-esque diversion of attention from the fact you couldn't deliver a decent assessment even with the assistance of all the world's current Nobel prize winners assisting. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Call me crazy, but I don't think the Israelis thought saving face (your phrasing, not mine) was so important compared to stopping and preventing further attacks on its sovereign territory. |
So, this was a fair response to a kidnapping?
And, if this was the only response you can conceive of, then the whole situation's pretty much screwed, isn't it?
After all, to play the devil's advocate, you can't expect Hezbollah to "just walk away", can you?
I believe YBS means that other measured responses were possible. I'd tend to agree. |
If Hizzbollah is an organization that is not dedicated to destroy Israel then Israel's action would probably not be a fair response. On the other hand if Hizzbollah is an organzation forever dedicated to destroying Israel then Israels' response was understandable or even justified.
Simple as that. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| The simple answer to this is stop expanding. If Israel wasn't expanding into the West Bank, hoarding most water resources for itself, and had built its apartheid wall along the 1967 borders it would be seen as much less of a threat by its neighbours. This would have saved it a great deal of grief down the road. |
Before 1967 Israel didn't have Gaza or the West Bank . What was the problem then.
Under Clintons offer Israel would have given up the West Bank and Gaza and 30 Billion dollars - That was not enough for Arafat.
How is Israel's wall an apartied wall? Those of the West bank and Gaza are not Israelis - not are they citizens of Israel.
However Israel's enemies do in fact practice apartheid. Indeed they are they greatest bigots and ethnic cleansers on the planet.
In fact there a least one good reason for Zionism - Bathism , Khomenism , Al Qaedaism and all the similar political ideologies are all fascist ideologies. Those that follow them are fascist bigots- f or real.
Those that follow them can't be trusted to govern or protect their minorities.
And those in the west who side with them are without a doubt terrorists sympathizers and apologists for or even supporters of fascism.
It is so.
And one more thing their supporters in the west are either naive or immoral or both. That is the way it is - and nothing else.
| Quote: |
| As for this incident, Israel could have launched a couple of commando raids against very select target to prove it still has the upper hand along its border with Lebanon, if saving face was so important. |
That would be ok if Hizzbollah was not an organization dedicated to destroying Israel. On the other hand if Hizzbollah is Israel' eternal enemy then it is understandable that Israel would try to take them out.
Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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